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Date: 2024-07-17 Page is: DBtxt001.php txt00001273

Environment and Society
About Climate Change

A climate scientist, Ethan Siegal claims to expose a climate science fraud

COMMENTARY

Peter Burgess

Recent Comments Peter Burgess on Exposing a Climate Science Fraud Exposing a Climate Science Fraud 'After all, facts are facts, and although we may quote one to another with a chuckle the words of the Wise Statesman, 'Lies - damned lies - and statistics,' still there are some easy figures the simplest must understand, and the astutest cannot wriggle out of.' -Leonard Courtney, 1895 'The first and worst of all frauds is to cheat oneself.' -Philip James Bailey In the study of any scientific field, there are two great perils that you have to be careful to avoid: fraud and incompetence. Incompetence could be as innocuous as making a simple mistake in your analysis, a contamination of your data set or samples, or other generally honest mistakes. (Image credit: flickr user ctsnow.) In science, we have all sorts of ways of correcting for incompetence. We demand that experiments and observations have their methods detailed and that the experiments be reproducible. We have multiple teams check their work and search for the claimed effect. It is not on authority that results are accepted, but only after the verified soundness of hundreds or even thousands of tests, trials, and analyses that solid conclusions are reached. That's why science requires that results and methods be transparent, so that they can be checked. But even after all that, you might ask yourself, 'well, okay, those might be your conclusions, but how sure are we that they're correct?' Fortunately, we have a system in place for testing it. (Image credit: COBE / FIRAS, NASA.) In particular, that system is math, and the way we quantify our confidence in a result is through statistics. While it's often said that statistics can be used to prove anything, the truth is that we have -- as scientists -- standardized methods that we use to calculate our confidence in models. We have standard tests that we use that tell us when to accept or reject data, and since we record everything we do, if you give any number of competent scientists the same data sets, they will not only give you the same answers for what the data say, they will give you the same confidence levels attesting to the significance of the results. Unless, of course, they're acting unethically. (Image credit: Responsible Science, 1992, by National Academies Press.) And when that happens, this goes beyond an innocent mistake, or even gross incompetence, and into the realm of fraud. Scientific fraud is generally thought of as deliberate falsification or misuse of data to arrive at a misleading, dishonest, or simply untrue conclusion. And perhaps one of the most dangerous places for fraud to appear is in a scientific context that impacts the health, safety, and security of our world. And that's why, when it comes to the most contentious scientific issue of our times, climate science and global warming, it's all the more important to expose any fraudulent claims that are made. (Image credit: ABC News of the Brisbane floods.) Because we only get one Earth, and it's important to get the science concerning it right. So if the Earth is experiencing global warming, we want to know. And if the warming has stopped, we want to know that, too. So last month, when I wrote about the largest global temperature study ever done, I was unsurprised at the firestorm that took place in the comments section. (500+ and counting!) After all, there were previous studies done that claimed to have measured global average temperature. (Image credit: NASA / GISS, retrieved from this address.) Although the vast majority of climate scientists accepted these results, there were a sizable number of vocal objections to possible errors that may have unfairly biased these results. And so the largest study ever done was undertaken: the Berkeley Earth Surface Temperature project, or BEST. A number of scientists, many of them avowed skeptics that the Earth was, in fact, warming, led this project. And, as I reported last month, they not only released their findings and results, they also opened up the entirety of their data to the public, so that anyone could analyze it! (Image credit: screenshot from BEST.) And so we can compare the previous results, from sources like NASA, above, but also from the two other major teams that have studied global average temperature: NOAA and HadCRU. What did they find? (Image credit: BEST.) A stunning agreement with the prior results, and confirmation that all the teams involved did a great job accounting for the potential pitfalls that the BEST team was worried about. And yet, if you were to listen to the words of Judith Curry, one of the BEST team members and authors, you might come away believing that somehow, this data indicates that the warming has stopped. As she herself said, in an interview with the UK's Guardian: This is 'hide the decline' stuff. Our data show the pause [in temperature rise], just as the other sets of data do. Muller is hiding the decline. To say this is the end of scepticism is misleading, as is the statement that warming hasn't paused. Those are some very strong statements! (And although Curry claims she was taken out of context at times, she also stands by these particular statements, quoted above.) The 'hide the decline' graph she refers to is this one, also published by BEST. Her contention, it would appear, is that taking a ten-year average is masking the fact that, over recent times, the temperature hasn't risen, or at least that the warming has paused! But we have the data, and so we can check this for ourselves. The above graph shows that the temperature, since 1970, has risen at an average rate of about 0.25° Celsius per decade. If the temperature hasn't risen -- or hasn't risen as quickly -- over the most recent times, then perhaps this is something to legitimately look at. But if the data indicates no recent 'decline' or 'slowing' at all, then this is a fraudulent contention. Let's get right into it. As this above graph, using the BEST data, from the Global Warming Policy Foundation shows, perhaps the rise shown in the top graph -- from the full set of BEST data -- levels off when we look at the temperature since 2001. Just eyeballing the bottom graph, it seems awfully conceivable that the temperature isn't rising over the past decade. But we don't just eyeball it; this is science. So rather than use the full data set, let's cut off all of the pre-2001 data, and then let's analyze it. (Image credit: dana1981 at Skeptical Science.) So, only looking at this tiny fraction -- around 9 years' worth -- of data, we know that there are going to be significant statistical uncertainties. Nevertheless, we still want to do our best fit to this data set, and see what it says. Anyone can do it themselves, but I'm going to borrow the graphs of tamino, who has done the same standard statistical analysis that I would. In fact, this is no different than the statistical analysis that any undergraduate trained in even a 100-level science or statistics course would use. (Image credit: tamino, from this post.) And what do we find? The slope -- which indicates rise -- is only 0.03° C per decade, with an uncertainty of ± 0.13° C. It is small enough, as Curry stated, that it is fair to state that, based on this, the warming has stopped. Except, if this is the data you used, you're committing scientific fraud. Because those temperature readings are all very reliable, except for two data points. You need to look not only at the data points from this data set, but the reliability of those points. Which they published, by the way. So, let's take a look. Those last two data points have temperature uncertainties of 2.8° and 2.9° C, respectively, while the next largest uncertainty is a mere 0.21° C! Why's that? The April and May 2010 data points are based on data from only 47 stations, all located in Antarctica, as opposed to the prior month (March 2010), which had data from 14,488 stations! So what do you do, if you're a responsible scientist? You don't use those data points. You throw those two unreliable points out. And if you do that, know what happens? (Image credit: data from Best, fits by tamino, animation by dana1981.) Two things: the slope of the line increases to 0.14° C per decade, and the uncertainty drops to ± 0.11° C. Well, that's a big difference! You might contend, based on this, that over the last nine years, perhaps the warming has slowed a little, but it certainly hasn't stopped. But it gets even worse for claims that the warming has slowed. Because as the Berkeley team themselves showed -- in agreement with other teams -- nine years is not enough time to make accurate measurements. Have a look at what year-to-year variations show: (Image credit: BEST team, retrieved from here.) As you can verify for yourself, there are plenty of intervals as long as 13 or even 15 years where the temperature doesn't appear to rise. As the BEST team themselves notes: Some people draw a line segment covering the period 1998 to 2010 and argue that we confirm no temperature change in that period. However, if you did that same exercise back in 1995, and drew a horizontal line through the data for 1980 to 1995, you might have falsely concluded that global warming had stopped back then. This exercise simply shows that the decadal fluctuations are too large to allow us to make decisive conclusions about long term trends based on close examination of periods as short as 13 to 15 years. And this agrees with that other paper I linked to, above, which says: Our results show that temperature records of at least 17 years in length are required for identifying human effects on global-mean tropospheric temperature. So let's do just that, and take the most recent 17 years on record. (Image credit: dana1981 from Skeptical Science; data from BEST.) Now the slope is + 0.36° C per decade, which appears to even be higher than the longer-term, 40-year trend. In fact, tamino has gone a step further, and calculated what the warming (or cooling) trend is, up to the present day, if you go back to any given year, starting as early as 1975 or as late as 2005! What do we find? It's actually remarkably consistent, and you need to take a time period as short as five years, which is certainly not statistically significant (look at those error bars!), in order to see the warming appear to stop. Curry claimed she was taken out of context, but came back with a joint statement (with Muller, lead author of BEST) that stated the following: We have both said that the global temperature record of the last 13 years shows evidence suggesting that the warming has slowed. Our new analysis of the land-based data neither confirms nor denies this contention. If you look at our new land temperature estimates, you can see a flattening of the rise, or a continuation of the rise, depending on the statistical approach you take. But why would you say such a thing? Remember that other thing you said about 13-year periods? Remember? I quoted it above, but I'll quote it again: ...the decadal fluctuations are too large to allow us to make decisive conclusions about long term trends based on close examination of periods as short as 13 to 15 years. Yes, you can see a flattening, if you do the scientifically unethical thing, take an insignificant portion of the data, and present it as significant. You also need to make the huge statistical errors of keeping the bad data points that you know are bad, and to cherry-pick your starting year and month to be April 1998 (or just a couple of months before), which happened to be the hottest month recorded (at the time), worldwide, since the invention of the thermometer. (And even if you do that, you still see warming, just by a slightly smaller amount.) But, if you're the scientist who knows better than to claim there's a flattening (or worse, a decline that's being hidden), and you do it anyway, that's not an honest mistake. (Image retrieved from here, you irony-savorers.) That's fraud. And I'm not the only one who's noticed. Curry has her own thoughts on disinformation, but the science doesn't lie. And if you don't believe me, go and do it for yourself: Go and get the raw data from the source -- BEST -- itself, do your own analysis of how the temperature has changed over time, and see what you get. Because you'll find that there is a game being played, but it's quite the opposite of 'hide the decline.' There isn't a decline to hide; when you look at the scientifically reliable data, the incline is all there is. The only game being played is the fraudulent cherry-picking of data to play 'hide the incline,' and I refuse to sit by silently while this dishonest game is played.


Ethan's Profile Ethan Siegel is a theoretical astrophysicist in Portland, OR.
TrackBack URL for this entry: http://scienceblogs.com/mt/pings/164478 Comments 1 They're basically saying 'but science can't disprove yet that warming has stopped within the last 5/10/13 years, so it's reasonable to believe it has'. This is a classic case of inversion of the burden of proof. It's what creationists do. It's what homeopaths do. It's what pseudoscientists and pseudoskeptics of all stripes do. Thanks for the thorough shredding of these claims. Is that the real reason you got those Wolverine claws? Posted by: Deen | November 11, 2011 8:37 AM 2 One of the biggest problems with the 'pause' meme is that uncertainty cuts both ways. Any period short enough to give a trend consistent with zero will also give a trend consistent with greatly increased warming. It's the same problem 'sceptics' have with emphasising uncertainties in climate sensitivity. They tend to ignore the possibility that we're underestimating just how bad things could get. Posted by: MartinM | November 11, 2011 9:03 AM 3 Ethan, good work! In my professional life I have seen too many wannabe scientists. Your articles relieve at least a certain amount of the pain. Posted by: Duncan Ivry | November 11, 2011 9:07 AM 4 I'll reiterate what I said elsewhere: either Judith Curry has considerably less expertise in statistics that expected of any scientist or she is being dishonest. I see no other alternative. Posted by: Richard Simons | November 11, 2011 9:53 AM 5 I have no problem with the data analysis here, but I think the charge of fraud is over the top. If you're serious about such a charge, then you probably ought to be lodging it formally, not in a blog post. The fact that people aren't held responsible for their 'rhetorical flourishes' is a big problem in the 'debate' about climate change. Posted by: bob koepp | November 11, 2011 10:13 AM 6 Wow, I'm not a climate scientist at all and you explained it in a way even I can understand =D Outstanding! This is my first time at your blog but it won't be my last. Thanks for the explanations! Posted by: Poodle Stomper | November 11, 2011 10:17 AM 7 @bob koepp: considering that Curry and others like her have clearly been told why they can't use periods of 13 years or less to derive trends (it's in the BEST report after all), but are doing so anyway, what would you call it? Posted by: Deen | November 11, 2011 10:44 AM 8 This confirms my own take on Global Warming so far as the science end goes. It's happening, and it's affecting the quality of life in environmentally sensitive areas (Northern China, sub-Saharan Africa, the American Southwest). At some point, the underlying question of what to do about it (addressing whether anything can be done about it without lowering the standard of living in the developed and developing world) needs to be faced. This, I think, is the power source of Deniers, and I'm afraid it's not going to go away: they claim that if we 'do something' about Global Warming, the 'cure' will be worse than 'the disease.' No matter how many times it's shown that, long term -- economically and perhaps even more so, politically -- it's easier to do something to fix Global Warming now than twenty years from now -- they succeed in blocking the discussion not only with fraudulent claims about the science of Global Warming, but draconian warnings about the economic implications of fixing it. Draconian implications that, ironically, may come true if it ISN'T fixed. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 11, 2011 10:45 AM 9 So, now we know it (again): the warming is real. Several independent calculations estimate the sea level rising for approx 60m (that's approx 200 feet!) if all the ice would melt. The next big questions for me would be: - how fast is that supposed to happen? - how real is the possibility for that melt to stop the 'ocean conveyor belt' (part of which is the Gulf Stream warming Europe)? - how real are the (scientific?) predictions that stopping the conveyor belt would lead to an abrupt cooling? Posted by: Tihomir | November 11, 2011 12:03 PM 10 So over on judithcurry.com, there is a comment thread devoted to accusing me of running a disinformation campaign for accurately representing her statements and sentiments, and showing why they're scientifically invalid. It appears there are a few reasonable people over there, too, and an argument is brewing. Can we help tip the scales towards good science? Posted by: Ethan Siegel | November 11, 2011 12:25 PM 11 Over there? Not sure there's much point. Posted by: MartinM | November 11, 2011 12:39 PM 12 The concept of this post is not exclusive to climate science. Being open and as accurate as possible with data analysis is universal in science. Technically if Curry wants to analyze a data set a certain way, thats fine... if she clearly states the pros and cons of her analysis, and compares it to other ways of analyzing the data, and makes an argument for why her analysis is best. Pretty much what Ethan did in this post. But when you are not being open about the caveats, to a casual observer, it looks like you are lying. To a scientist, it looks like you are manipulating data sets to make them say what you want them to say (aka 'fraud'). Posted by: ERV | November 11, 2011 12:40 PM 13 What is the 'ideal' planetary temperature? Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 11, 2011 1:11 PM 14 Simply brilliant, Ethan. Too bad the climate trolls and naysayers will ignore or not get it... until they are up to their ears in hard, wet fact. Posted by: Texrat | November 11, 2011 1:17 PM 15 Linked here from ERV. Great article! It was easy to understand even for someone as incompetent with statistics as I, and of course it is the right thing to do. Sets a great example, and goes to show that the scientific process is worthy of our confidence and trust even when frauds and charlatans try to abuse it. Cheers. Posted by: 0verlord | November 11, 2011 1:18 PM 16 Good post as usual. I'm curious about something. Has anyone applied delay embedding (Takens' Theorem) to climate data, or incorporated it in climate models? Posted by: bibliovore | November 11, 2011 1:39 PM 17 Thanks for the post. I always suspected that global warming wasn't really a crisis and this confirms it. There's a big business around constructing fear and driving money towards organizations that will 'save the planet'. All lies. Posted by: Luis | November 11, 2011 1:47 PM 18 I suspect 'AGWSkeptic' can't answer his/her own question, and in fact would go 'gotcha!' in response to any answer. It's the wrong question and 'Skeptic' probably knows it. But I'd offer her/him a few questions to chew on instead: What is the 'ideal' rate of change in the ecosystem you live in, and in the ones your food grows in? What is the 'ideal' loss of habitable coastline in a given year? What is the 'ideal' increase in the acidity of the Atlantic Ocean? Posted by: Vicki | November 11, 2011 1:48 PM 19 There is an alternative to not using the data points, namely, using them and assigning the correct uncertainty to them, so that they do not pull the fit any more than their statistical due. Since there is a significant shift when the points are removed, it suggests that they were not correctly weighted in the first place. Posted by: Andrew Foland | November 11, 2011 1:53 PM 20 What is the 'ideal' rate of change in the ecosystem you live in, and in the ones your food grows in? 3.2 What is the 'ideal' loss of habitable coastline in a given year? Depends on how many nature tricks you use to hide the decline. What is the 'ideal' increase in the acidity of the Atlantic Ocean? The same as happened during the MWP. Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 11, 2011 2:06 PM 21 There's a big business around constructing fear and driving money towards organizations that will 'save the planet'. All lies. What's the deal with this whole 'money is bad' attitude? Why are people so keen on buying into the lie that the right thing cannot or should not also be lucrative? Posted by: 0verlord | November 11, 2011 2:53 PM 22 ... and in his/her replies to Vicki, AGWSkeptic lays bare the fact that AGWSkeptic is not a skeptic at all, but rather a denialist. Try again, AGWSkeptic, this time with some peer-reviewed science, please, not long-falsified conspiracy theories. Posted by: Composer99 | November 11, 2011 2:53 PM 23 Luis: Asserting a thing does not make it true. If you have any references to back up your claim that the science behind AGW, from which we infer the necessity of action, is 'all lies', please present it. Otherwise your claim can be safely dismissed as mendacious projection. Posted by: Composer99 | November 11, 2011 2:55 PM 24 Shorter Composer: Name calling makes me right! Al Gore said so! Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 11, 2011 3:12 PM 25 I'm still waiting for a denier to complete the Underpants Gnome construct: 1) Manufacture the global warming crisis 2) ? 3) Profit What is phase 2? How exactly are climatologists going to get rich off this scheme? Meanwhile, we know for a fact that right now there are companies making billions off the fossil fuel status quo. It's a good thing they're all perfectly ethical and would never dream of trying to interfere in the scientific debate to try to maintain that status quo, and all we have to worry about are those devious climatologists, right? Posted by: ShavenYak | November 11, 2011 3:12 PM 26 Why are people so keen on buying into the lie that the right thing cannot or should not also be lucrative? Tell your fellow alarmists that the next time they start caterwauling about 'Big Oil'. Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 11, 2011 3:17 PM 27 What is phase 2? 'Convince politicians to give us huge 'research' grants. How exactly are climatologists going to get rich off this scheme? By ensuring perpetual high-income employment for themselves while dreaming up schemes that will ensure unemployment for the rest of us. Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 11, 2011 3:22 PM 28 @Ethan: Bravo sir, bravo. There's a reason I have you as my homepage! @AGWSkeptic: WTF man? I'm going to continue the South Park reference and assume you are from Imaginationland. That (or from the most recent South Park) you too have fallen prey to The History Channel. Posted by: Cody Lawson | November 11, 2011 4:00 PM 29 I think it's also worth noting that 'hide the decline' is in itself a misleading reference to a statement in one of the pirated CRU emails. As outlined in Clearing up misconceptions regarding 'hide the decline', the original email was referring to replacing tree-ring data with actual temperature measurements after a divergence of N. hemisphere tree data from measurements in the 1960's. It was not referring to hiding an actual decline in measured temperatures. Posted by: Keith Eric Grant | November 11, 2011 4:02 PM 30 What is phase 2? 'Convince politicians to give us huge 'research' grants. ... This is a Poe, right? Or maybe a bot? Mark V. Shaney, is that you?? Posted by: Brian | November 11, 2011 4:02 PM 31 I'm starting to see how this flak of blind opposition hurled up by Denialists can drive someone bonkers -- as in the case of 'Wow,' in the I AM A SCIENTIST comments page. All the charts and graphs and statistics failed to convince me about Global Warming in any but an abstract way. Living in the Southwest the past couple of years has done the rest of the job. In Texas this past year, there was something like a hundred days when the temperature reached a hundred degrees or above, with an associated drought that has brought on unprecedented fires and smog hazard. In New Mexico, we've had less than half the usual total of rain this year. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure. But then you scan the globe and see that virtually the same thing is happening, and worse, in environmentally sensitive regions of North China and sub-Sarahan Africa. Something's going on. How bad it is, how bad it will get, may be a matter for debate. But the fact that something bad is happening to the climate worldwide SHOULD be undeniable. There were people in the 'Thirties, too, who thought the Dust Bowl was no big deal. Until, that is, a duststorm blew onto the East Coast and left deposits all the way from Boston to NYC to Washington, ultimately lining the decks of ships halfway across the Atlantic. Then they decided something had to be done -- a day late and a dollar short. This time, there won't be any day late and dollar short. Not when the coasts go underwater and most of the interior becomes unlivable -- a very possible outcome if Global Warming continues at all as predicted. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 11, 2011 4:06 PM 32 As for Judith Curry, I glanced at that website and it was like running into a wall of self-referential social and blog-patronizing blather, very little of it relevant to hard science. Just to go about taking in the page after page of loaded, arch posts by Dr. Curry, let alone parsing the different comments, most of which seemed obsequious if not ass-kissing to the blogger, would take more time and patience than I've got. Like I said back on the I AM A SCIENTIST comments page, the facts and implications about Global Warming are straightforward and difficult to misinterpret -- though Dr. Curry gives it a spiteful go. Once established, as those facts have been established, the question should be, how bad is Global Warming going to turn out and what should we do to ameleriorate what looks to be a highly negative outcome? Talking past the facts, as she does, invites world disaster on the one hand, and ultimate political retribution on the other. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 11, 2011 4:30 PM 33 AGWSkeptic: Since you have nothing better on offer on this thread other than: - unsubstantiated or even already-falsified allegations of conspiracy - logical fallacies - no evidentiary support to back up your position - the AGW equivalent of Godwin's law you are scoring on any reasonable metric for science denialism. Hence the description is not name-calling per se, rather it is inferred from your observed posting on this and other threads. If you can present references to peer-reviewed evidence which have withstood post-publication scrutiny (so not, say Spencer&Braswell2011) which show that global warming is not real or is not anthropogenic, both of which currently fly in the face of an enormous amount of evidence (none of which Al Gore has anything to do with save perhaps for attempting to disseminate it in the public sphere), then you have a case. If you can not or will not, then the charge of denialist sticks. Posted by: Composer99 | November 11, 2011 5:02 PM 34 nice post Ethan! it is amazing how poorly some people understand statistics. let's see if i can do a good temperature analysis: last summer it was 90°. Today it is 40°. that is a 50° decrease in four months. extrapolate this rate over the course of a year to get a 150° decrease in temperature. next summer it's going to be -60°. hmmmm...my data seems to indicate catastrophic global cooling... :) Posted by: rob | November 11, 2011 5:23 PM 35 Our awesome friend Abbie, who gave us some great linkage over at ERV, has this very frustrating comment in response to the article above: The article Ethan is responding to is a tabloid article, and as I'm sure you can imagine, tabloid journalists don't always fully capture the nuanced viewpoint of scientists. For Judith's full nuanced view on this topic, I would encourage you to read this article on her blog: http://judithcurry.com/2011/11/04/pause/ A quick example quote: In any event, identifying an AGW signal on this short timescale isn’t useful. What is of interest on this timescale is whether natural variability (forced and unforced) can dominate the AGW signal on decadal timescales and produce a ‘pause’ or a ‘stop’. This is the issue addressed by Santer et al., searching for the AGW signal amidst the natural variability noise. This post represents her full, considered view and if after reading this you still consider her to be a fraud or fantastic idiot, so be it. I would just discourage reading too much between the lines of her views as parsed by a journalist at the Daily Fail. If this were you, and you were on the BEST team, and the Daily Mail misrepresented your findings, what would you do? Presumably, you would be outraged, and immediately write an article that clearly states that -- when one does their statistics properly -- there's no reason at all to believe that global warming has abated, lessened, or paused. Because that is what the data show, when you do your analysis properly. You would be clearing up the misrepresented part and should replace it with what the data best represents! But that's not what Curry's done, not in her article linked above nor in anything else she's written in the time since. I am waiting for Curry to do that; we should all be demanding that she do so. And that's what her scientific employer should be demanding, too, IMO. Posted by: Ethan Siegel | November 11, 2011 5:47 PM 36 Another good post. BTW, I see you're now wielding Occam's Talons — razor sharp, no doubt. Posted by: Chris Winter | November 11, 2011 6:11 PM 37 AGWSkeptic wrote (#13): 'What is the 'ideal' planetary temperature?' It's better to ask what is the ideal planetary temperature range. This allows for daily and seasonal variations around a mean. But, for either form of the question, the definitive answer is: the one we''re used to. Certainly there is a threshold below which changes in mean temperature are no big deal. This would probably be 1°C per century, if it then reversed. We've seen almost that much rise already. But of course there's no indication that it will reverse, or even slow down, unless we make it do so. Posted by: Chris Winter | November 11, 2011 6:22 PM 38 If there was a 'pause' between 2005-2010, I'd be interested in seeing the data for 2011, because it's been a helluva year for heat so far. I scanned the 'Pause' article, though not the 793 comments that came after. Curry seems capable of level-headed analysis. Why does she not see that if Global Warming turns out to be a major factor in the world's future that it's going to be bad for Deniers or even late Skeptics? If Warmists turn out to be wrong, they can join Paul Ehrlich in his POPULATION BOMB obsolescence. If Deniers are significantly wrong, there's going to be alot hotter hell to pay than Global Warming alone will provide. (As I said before, beware when angry people get total political control...). Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 11, 2011 6:25 PM 39 Overlord wrote (#21): 'Why are people so keen on buying into the lie that the right thing cannot or should not also be lucrative?' Because it cuts into the profitability of doing the wrong thing, in which certain people are heavily invested. Posted by: Chris Winter | November 11, 2011 6:27 PM 40 AGWSkeptic wrote (#27): 'By ensuring perpetual high-income employment for themselves while dreaming up schemes that will ensure unemployment for the rest of us.' Exactly, A! By destroying the rest of the economy, they assure perpetual wealth for themselves. Brilliant! Oh, wait... ( /sarc ) Posted by: Chris Winter | November 11, 2011 6:34 PM 41 '13. What is the 'ideal' planetary temperature? Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 11, 2011 1:11 PM' They say there are no stupid questions. I put this forth as evidence to the contrary. Posted by: William George | November 11, 2011 8:35 PM 42 Heh it's funny the deniers are quick to point out how the 100 years worth of good data is too small a set to make a judgement, and then the same crowd turns around and uses a ten year set to make a declaration. I agree: fraud. Posted by: fletch | November 11, 2011 8:46 PM 43 ETHAN!! Climate Science is a swamp... please, please, please keep your feet dry and stay out of it. Physics demands 5 sigmas... Climate Science 1 sigma. In my opinion, this 'pause' business is all a tempest in a teapot. Inclined sinusoidal shows a pause. Big Deal! Both tamino and Judy are correct. When I come to your blog, I to want learn things such as the make-up of the Fine Structure Constant. Any thoughts? :) Posted by: AJ | November 11, 2011 11:32 PM 44 AJ: Both tamino and Judy are correct. No. Any thoughts? You're wrong. Posted by: Chris O'Neill | November 12, 2011 1:27 AM 45 Ethan, You have just accused another scientist of 'fraud'. This is an extremely serious accusation -- perhaps the most serious professional accusation you can make... based on... what? A newspaper interview? Perhaps you should have talked to some people who have worked in the field for some time to see what they think. Now, I don't think much of Dr. Curry's latest science, or her ability to communicate on these topics, but by all indications, her efforts to bridge the gap with the skeptics is sincere. I think it is misguided, and naive, and her understanding of statistics is seriously wanting, but I don't think for a moment that is is fraudulent. Posted by: Joe | November 12, 2011 2:55 AM 46 The fact that people aren't held responsible for their 'rhetorical flourishes' is a big problem in the 'debate' about climate change. The person you're not holding responsible here is Judith Curry, who is incompetent, a fraud, and a serial liar ... and that failure to hold incompetents, frauds, and liars responsible is indeed a 'big problem' in the 'debate' ... so big a problem that the population at large has been misled about the stark reality of AGW and important policy changes have not occurred because of it. Posted by: Marcel Kincaid | November 12, 2011 3:06 AM 47 but by all indications, her efforts to bridge the gap with the skeptics is sincere That's utter rot. Her blog is a gathering point for denialists whom she never ever corrects. I don't think for a moment that is is fraudulent. Bully for you. It is in fact fraudulent. Posted by: Marcel Kincaid | November 12, 2011 3:09 AM 48 In my opinion Your opinion, being based entirely on ignorance, is worthless. Posted by: Marcel Kincaid | November 12, 2011 3:11 AM 49 This post represents her full, considered view If so, Abbie, then it proves her a fraud, since it contains fraudulent statements such as Is global warming over? Addressing this question requires a prediction of future temperatures, and we can’t really answer that with the data. Posted by: Marcel Kincaid | November 12, 2011 3:19 AM 50 the facts and implications about Global Warming are straightforward and difficult to misinterpret -- though Dr. Curry gives it a spiteful go. Once established, as those facts have been established, the question should be, how bad is Global Warming going to turn out and what should we do to ameleriorate what looks to be a highly negative outcome? Talking past the facts, as she does, invites world disaster on the one hand, and ultimate political retribution on the other. Quite so. Posted by: Marcel Kincaid | November 12, 2011 3:22 AM 51 Name calling makes me right! What does make you right, about anything? All of your claims and implications are contrary to fact, including your labeling yourself a skeptic. Posted by: Marcel Kincaid | November 12, 2011 3:28 AM 52 Marcel, Abbie is the host of the ERV scienceblog, which is excellent, and which had a link to this post. The comment that you (very justly) responded to was originally from her blog, but was written by a commenter named Spence, whom I believe is this chap. But thank you for standing up for the (what I believe are) very well-justified statements I made here. Cheers, Ethan Posted by: Ethan Siegel | November 12, 2011 3:45 AM 53 Great Post Ethan - simple, powerful, honest. Keep up the good work. Posted by: Philip | November 12, 2011 4:24 AM 54 So, in the 'Climategate' emails which shed so much light on the back-scene wheelings and dealings of those who would demand that we return to the stone ages because of their 'proxies' that ''accurately'' reflect temperature from thousands of years ago to a TENTH of a degree---when current and reliable satellite and ground based sensors cannot accurately measure temperature to the TENTH of a degree and have to have 'step-wise' changes--UPWARD ONLY--when these 'scientists' use the term 'HIDE THE DECLINE', we are simply to dimiss their own words because you say so? Keep your head in the sand and keep crying wolf. Btw, the EPA estimates the cost of reducing temperature by 2100 by 1* C at $1.9QUADRILLION dollars. How many zeros are in that? And, Capitalism will not pay for that, only Socialism will. Posted by: GaelanClark | November 12, 2011 8:37 AM 55 GaelanClark @ 54: Let's see.... Still misled into thinking that Climategate was a scandal... Still misunderstanding temperature proxies... Still misinterpreting a colloquial statement about tree ring proxy temperatures... Still misrepresenting that the actual evidence is our 'say so'... Still miscalculating the cost of the steps needed to alter the course of things... Still misinformed about what socialism is... BINGO! I filled my denier card out with one post! Posted by: NJ | November 12, 2011 8:55 AM 56 Your reliance upon the '17-year' standard is presented as if it were scientific or statistical gospel, when it clearly is not! Isn't that just as much of a 'fraud' or as equally 'unethical' as you imply Curry to have been? The entire quote (in relevant part) is: 'A single decade of observational TLT data is therefore inadequate for identifying a [i][b]slowly evolving anthropogenic warming[/i][/b] signal. Our results show that temperature records of at least 17 years in length are required [i][b]for identifying human effects[/i][/b] on global-mean tropospheric temperature.' You obviously (and incorrectly/dishonestly?)proceed from the proposition that [b][i]all[/i][/b] land-based warming measurements reflect the result only of man's influence on the climate. By ignoring the other accepted influences (solar radiation, albedo/cloud-cover, et c.)on climate, you rely upon a standard clearly limited to anthropogenic warming models, and apply it to general observations to support an otherwise unsupportable conclusion. Fraud? Unethical? Dishonest? Pot, meet kettle. jw Posted by: john wondra | November 12, 2011 9:20 AM 57 About the only thing I ever have to say when I comment here is 'thank you.' I hope you won't mind me saying it again. Thanks for all the time and work you put into your blog, Ethan. You have an amazing talent for taking complex data and making it accessible to people like me who would be otherwise unable to understand it. Posted by: 1000 Needles | November 12, 2011 9:29 AM 58 John: the length of time required to detect a significant change in temperature has nothing to do with whether it is human-caused or the result of solar radiation, etc. The common procedure with regression is to take at least as many measurements as is required to detect a significant slope given the expected change and the natural variability of the population (or until you decide that the effect is so small as to be of no interest). If you are looking at the change in temperature of a pot on a hot stove, three measurements is probably adequate. If you are examining the changing height of 10-year-olds, you might need 1000 observations. In the case of global climate, given the current change and the amount of variability, something like 17 years is required regardless of the source of variability. Posted by: Richard Simons | November 12, 2011 9:50 AM 59 #55--NJ Let me give just one repudiation of your remarks. The easiest to do so because it involves a hard science-mathematics. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=3ede3e93-813f-4449-97e6-0d6eb54fbc9e Using their numbers, mind you... For $78bb per year we will reduce CO2 by 2.9ppm and global mean temp reduced by 0.006-0.0015C by 2100. Avg global mean temp reduced=0.00375C by 2100....total for $7trillion in cost!!!!! Okay, now try to make it meaningful and let us get ONE full degree celsius of cooling.... 7,000,000,000,000/0.00375=1,866,666,666,666,667....$1.86QUADRILLION DOLLARS TO GET 1DEGREE CELSIUS OF COOLING. I am glad you are not running the business there buddy. Posted by: GaelanClark | November 12, 2011 10:07 AM 60 That is: $1.86 QUADRILLION DOLLARS Posted by: GaelanClark | November 12, 2011 10:11 AM 61 GaelanClark @ 59&60: Wading through the bizzaro URL leads to a report with the following title: EPA’S ANTI-INDUSTRIAL POLICY: “THREATENING JOBS AND AMERICA’S MANUFACTURING BASE” United States Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works Minority Staff Released: September 28, 2010 Oooops. A denier report, written by bought and paid for Republican senators? Here's a clue, since you can't seem to buy one: Bogus numbers multiplied by bogus numbers gives you...(wait for it) bogus numbers! You want to discuss costs? Fine. Find independent, peer-reviewed cost/benefit comparisons of doing nothing vs. doing something, with everything laid out. Then we can have a discussion. Right now, all you are doing is proving that you can be distracted by Fox News dragging red herrings across your path. Kinda like my neighbor's idiot dog. Posted by: NJ | November 12, 2011 10:34 AM 62 I'm no scientist, but I think many people by now agree that some warming is happening, you don't need to pay thousands of scientists and fund endless studies for it, just look at the glaciers disappearing year after year, that's not an alarmist's invention, it's hard not to see it. What hasn't been proven yet is that this warming - climate change, I believe is the politically correct euphemism nowadays - is exclusively anthropogenic, or even to what partial extent it may be, or even that an increase of 1ºC over a century is going to mean catastrophe. It would mean harsher conditions in some parts of the globe for sure, lack of water, higher tides, and so on, as much as a cooling would mean harsher conditions in some other parts of the globe, longer winters, decreases in crop - and human - productivity, increase in fuel consumption, and so on. But there is also plenty data showing that increases in temperature (and CO levels) benefits tropical forest and increase crop productivity in some other parts of the world. While BOTH sides of the debate often engage in dubious (17 years span is about as scientifically proven that any other time frame) and yes, downright fraudulent behaviour - there also seems to be a extremely bad case of confirmation bias going on. Jump on the global warming, sorry, climate change train (change, which by the way, is a natural state of things) or we all die. It may feel righteously good to attack the skeptics, but didn't scientists also tell us we were all going to freeze to death a couple of decades ago, or that oil was running out by the mid-eighties? Cheap oil economy needs some serious revision, as do excessive consumerism and unconscionable energy waste, because they don't make sense on their own. Using climate change as a mean to do that is about as reproachable - on a much larger scale - as using the WMD excuse to invade Iraq. Posted by: Mauro Z. | November 12, 2011 10:41 AM 63 I give a less rigorous (than Santer et al., 2011) but more intuitive illustration of why you need 20-30 years of data to define a climate mean or trend. Simply: It isn't climate if your value changes substantially when you add or subtract a year's data. That's weather. See, for instance, http://moregrumbinescience.blogspot.com/2009/01/results-on-deciding-trends.html Follow links from there for the mean. Posted by: Robert Grumbine | November 12, 2011 10:47 AM 64 One has to get a considerable laugh out of claims by denialists like AGWskeptic that climate scientists are in it for the money. The fact is that they could make a lot more money pimping for the Koch brothers. Posted by: SLC | November 12, 2011 10:49 AM 65 Richard Simons #58: 'In the case of global climate, given the current change and the amount of variability, something like 17 years is required regardless of the source of variability.' IMHo that is too little. For a non-periodic signal it might work, but the average temperature has periods and pseudoperiods. Usually you need at least three cycles to smooth over the end effects. For annual cycles that is easy, but the climate has also some longer features, whose period is slightly variable, like El Niño and sunspots. Three sunspot cycles needs more than 30 years. Touching the topic... http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/11/fox-news-successfully-creates-climate-confusion-but-only-among-conservatives.ars Posted by: Lassi Hippeläinen | November 12, 2011 11:05 AM 66 THE FRAUD IS THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE TRUE FACT OF THE GOSPLES THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE SAVIOR AND THE LORD GOD AND KIND OF THE UNIVERSE IT IS A FACT THAT THERE IS NO GLOBAL 'WARMING' BUT THAT SATAN IS USING THIS TO TRY TO DECIEVE THE FAITHFUL WITH HATE AND LIES THE TEMPERATURE IS CONTROLLED BY GOD! GOD RULES! ALL OF THIS IS LIES BY SATAN AND THAT IS A TRUE FACT YOUR GRAPHS AND CHARTS SHOULD BE BURNED AND YOU BETTER REPENT OR GO TO HELL!!!!!!!!!! Posted by: repentnowsinner | November 12, 2011 12:02 PM 67 The reason fossil fuel interests are so much into global warming denial is about money. As soon as governments start making policy based on the reality of AGW and the urgent reality to do something about AGW, the entire fossil fuel industry will take a gigantic multi-trillion dollar hit. The value of fossil fuel companies is based on the reserves they have of fossil fuels. That valuation is based on the value of those resources as fuels which requires burning them and releasing the CO2 into the atmosphere. There are more fossil fuel reserves than can be burned without making the CO2 level of the atmosphere unacceptably high (age of dinosaurs high). That means that some of those fossil fuel reserves can't be burned, which means they can't have the value that they are currently valued at. The value of fossil fuel reserves is an economic bubble. The bubble is hidden because of AGW denial. That economic bubble due to the over valuing of fossil fuel reserves will burst some day and everyone holding fossil fuel assets will take a gigantic financial hit. The current value of those fossil fuel assets is illusory because the value does not reflect the future value of fossil fuels. Burst the fossil fuel economic bubble by putting rational limits on CO2 levels in the atmosphere, and the power of the fossil fuel industry to perpetuate AGW denial is greatly reduced, and their incentives for doing so are greatly reduced. What the fossil fuel industry is doing is: 1. have more fossil fuel assets than can be burned 2. trick people into thinking that those assets can be burned by denying AGW 3. Profit by using those fictitious assets as collateral for debt or selling stock. Posted by: daedalus2u | November 12, 2011 12:11 PM 68 Dear AGWSkeptic, Could you please furnish me with some stats on the incomes of climate scientists (and academics in general). A list of those 'huge' grants would be nice as well. Why should I be left out of this lucrative fraud business, that you have uncovered all on your own. --o-- Dear Luis, I don't know if English is your first language, but it sounds like you need to work on your reading comprehension. Your conclusion does not follow from the article in any manner I can discern. Posted by: Sili | November 12, 2011 12:18 PM 69 Watch this for an explanation for fair-weather skepticism. Posted by: Chris O'Neill | November 12, 2011 1:06 PM 70 rns @ 66: Nope, climate change deniers are not at all like evolution deniers, not at all, no way... Posted by: NJ | November 12, 2011 1:09 PM 71 THE FRAUD IS THAT YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE TRUE FACT OF THE GOSPLES A nuanced touch. Well done. Posted by: Narad | November 12, 2011 3:04 PM 72 When I come to your blog, I to want learn things such as the make-up of the Fine Structure Constant. Any thoughts? :) Yeah. You should start your own blog, if you're dissatisfied with the contents of this one. Last I checked, dr Siegel wasn't employed by you. Your fixation on 5σ seems to indicate that you'd feel far more at home reading Luboš Motl. Posted by: Sili | November 12, 2011 3:31 PM 73 Mauro @62 climate change, I believe is the politically correct euphemism nowadays I think if you go into the history of the terms, you will find that 'climate change' was used in this context before 'global warming'. What hasn't been proven yet is that this warming [. . .] is exclusively anthropogenic Proof does not belong in science - the expression you are looking for is probably 'convincingly demonstrated'. What exactly would it take to convince you that most, if not all, of the current warming is anthropogenic? Most people who make this kind of claim actually have no idea of what would convince them. But there is also plenty data showing that increases in temperature (and CO [sic] levels) benefits tropical forest and increase crop productivity in some other parts of the world. Could you link to a single paper showing that increasing temperatures benefit tropical forests, or will lead to higher productivity of tropical crops? This idea that higher temperatures or CO2 benefit crops is promulgated almost entirely by non-biologists. but didn't scientists also tell us we were all going to freeze to death a couple of decades ago, No. A cooling trend was noted in the 70s because of atmospheric pollution and there was speculation on how long it might continue. At about the same time, a study of Milankovitch cycles determined that, if other conditions stayed the same, we would enter another Ice Age in 12,000 (or failing that, 120,000) years (I cannot remember the exact values). Journalists mixed the two concepts together and forgot the if . . . to give a journalistic prediction of an imminent Ice Age. Posted by: Richard Simons | November 12, 2011 4:47 PM 74 OK. So we destroy all industrial societies to reduce greenhouse gas production to pre-industrial levels. Now what? Now we have mass starvation (remember, no fertilizer), complete deforestation (no fuel for cooking or heating, so we must cut down the trees), mass immigration to reach more temperate climates causing world wars. Of course, at this future point point in time we would have a substance called petroleum in abundance, containing 138,000 btu's per gallon, which has been banned. But we know that no one would cheat. . . . And we're doing this to avoid temperatures near that of Roman times? Oh, let's. Post haste! Posted by: Orwellian Dilemma | November 12, 2011 6:27 PM 75 For those of you thinking, 'we should at least do something' one should bear in mind that changing light bulbs and passing cap and trade and adhering to Kyoto will be as useful as rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. If AGW is true, we first must get emissions back to at least 'carbon neutral' to even think of having any effect(which, by most estimates would be aggregate levels of the 1820's, but with today's population means a per capita level approaching Bronze Age Man). This doesn't mean we should be profligate, but be realistic about this. Destroying the world economy will have unintended consequences. Posted by: Orwellian Dilemma | November 12, 2011 6:57 PM
76 @ 74, 75 No one, not even the whackiest AGW-obsessive loon on the I AM A SCIENTIST comments page, suggested destroying the world economy in order to save the climate. Most of the heat on that page was directed toward people who were denying the facts of AGW, with some associated flak being directed toward conservative or moderate AGW-ers like myself. The world economy, in any event, will in the end be destroyed if even the less drastic AGW scenarios that I foresee turn out to be correct. What is needed is time -- time to make green technologies and conservation measures more profitable and hence more viable. But time, if this hot, dry year of 2011 is any indication, may be what we don't have. Before long, we may have to decide on whether to gamble on measures to buy us time -- such as increasing albedo in the atmosphere and on the world's surface, or placing material in space to interfere with solar radiation. The big danger behind that is that we will begin to rely on such temporary measures, and forego the real changes that have to be made, to fend off longterm disaster. But I think something will have to be done, the next few years, if the world is to avoid a real calamity. Remember, 'Orwellian Dilemma,' Orwell never claimed that the problems the animals set out to remedy in ANIMAL FARM, or even the horrors of 1984, happened they were invented or 'made up' by maniacs seeking power. The problems of capitalism, one of which is AGW, are manmade, and can be solved by free people. But they can't be solved by denying they exist. And if they're not solved -- that's when the Orwellian outcome really begins to resonate. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 12, 2011 7:16 PM
77 Mr. Dawe (76), I respectfully believe you miss my point. On the one hand, if AGW is true, etc., the timid little steps we are taking (and which will have a devastating effect on the world economy) won't even make a detectable improvement. On the other hand, the wars that these steps will cause will make our current carbon output appear benign by comparison. (Look at the carbon spike during WWII, e.g.) Orwell's dilemma was set out in his essays, not his fiction. As a socialist, he realized the 'unfairness' in capitalism, but saw that the unintended unfairness unleashed by socialism dwarfed it. Today, we are choosing imminent, avoidable economic destruction on a scale never seen--all to take ineffective measures against a danger we little understand. Meanwhile, those who ask questions are treated as Laocoon, who, though right, was killed for wanting to investigate the wooden horse before it was brought into Troy. While current AGW projections present some economic displacement, it is nothing like even the 'moderate' steps like Kyoto will cause. Whether those gathering the power to make you use a toilet that does not flush while you stumble in semi-darkness because the expensive and short-lived CFL's* don't work do so out of care or out of greed--be your own judge. I, for one, am always distrustful of newly-minted billionaires (Al Gore, e.g.) demanding my fealty. *I have yet to get a CFL to last more than a few months, and I've been using them for years. Posted by: Orwellian Dilemma | November 12, 2011 8:16 PM
78 That's the tune you sing now. When you're melting down in the dark because of AGW, or -- even more likely -- being herded into the docket by the AGW Thought Police who gain power because you wouldn't give up on your talking points, I foresee a melodic change on your part. For myself, I think all the changes we need to make for -- captitalist! -- civilization to be long-lasting and environmentally friendly are right in our grasp now. But I fear that if we wait much longer, they won't be. Then the Orwellian outcome becomes all the more likely. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 12, 2011 8:32 PM
79 I have yet to get a CFL to last more than a few months, and I've been using them for years. Then you should probably get your wiring checked. Posted by: MartinM | November 12, 2011 8:57 PM 80 If you take AGW at face value, it is undisputed that to make any temperature difference whatsoever, every man, woman, and child, will have to reduce their carbon footprint to that of the Bronze Age(a 97% reduction)--right now. Let that sink in. Technically speaking, we are at least 60-70 years from being able to make even a 50% reduction. Worst case 40-year projections show temperatures approaching that of about 300 A.D. with no changes in behavior at all. (We simply were not 'melting' in 300 A.D.) Thus our choices: Constantine's weather or Mad Max's society (which is not as fun as it looks in the movie). This chat is immaterial, however, because your side has won. There is no hope to avoid the creeping totalitarianism intended by the AGW crowd. In fact, all this discussion is somewhat silly, because the AGW's will do what they want--by connivance if possible, but by force if necessary. Freedom is the most unstable of the elements, brief and bright, but always, always, destined to fail. Posted by: Orwellian Dilemma | November 12, 2011 9:13 PM
81 Orwellian Dilemma: Mr. Dawe (76), I respectfully believe you miss my point. No, not accepting your assertions is not the same as missing the point. On the one hand, if AGW is true, etc., the timid little steps we are taking (and which will have a devastating effect on the world economy) You're making an assertion without evidence. On the other hand, the wars that these steps will cause will make our current carbon output appear benign by comparison. (Look at the carbon spike during WWII, e.g.) You're making another false assertion. The truth is the exact opposite of what you say. In fact the CO2 level actually went down during WW2. One of the biggest problems in this whole 'debate' is people such as yourself who are completely careless with the facts. Posted by: Chris O'Neill | November 12, 2011 9:17 PM
82 @MartinM, Thanks. I've had the wiring checked twice. Both electricians say the wiring's fine. I never have problems with the few incandescents I have left. (My electronics are fine as well and I'm too poor to buy decent surge protectors.) I just hope the CFL's get cheaper because I'm going broke buying replacements. Posted by: Orwell's Dilemma | November 12, 2011 9:20 PM
83 O'Neill: CO2 went down 1930-36 due to the Great Depression. It started up in 1936 due to increased industrialization as the Wehrmacht and Japanese Empire ramped up production of war materiale, followed by the French and British playing catch up. 1941 saw a further increase as the Americans and Soviets joined the industrial race against Hitler and Hirohito. During the post war recession 1946-48 a levelling off, followed by an almost unchanged increase until 1975's embargo-induced recession. But maybe the IPCC lied about that too, though I cannot imagine why. But again, don't worry. There is much too much money to be made and power to be wielded by controlling carbon for your side to lose. Posted by: Orwellian Dilemma | November 12, 2011 10:05 PM
84 Orwellian Dilemma@80 Worst case 40-year projections show temperatures approaching that of about 300 A.D. with no changes in behavior at all. What have you been reading? Please could you give a citation to a scientific paper that gives any credence to the idea that global temperatures are not already higher than those in Roman times? Posted by: Richard Simons | November 12, 2011 10:07 PM
85 For 100yrs the coal industry insisted that pea-soup fog was not a problem, and the law agreed with them. By the end of the 50's so many people were dying from pea-souper's that governments were forced to act. They did the same thing with sulphur emissions, denying that acid rain was a problem until the 1990's when Reagan negotiated a cap and trade system on sulphur. They have been denying AGW with fraudulent claims for over 50yrs now! How long will it take before people, (the US public in particular), catch on and get angry about being used as what Kruschev called 'useful idiots'? How long before the enemies of reason such as Senator Inhofe are ignored rather than assigned powerful positions in environmental policy decisions? The time for research and corporate propaganda is well and truly over! Science has answered the basic questions very clearly over the last 2-3 decades and has done a great job advertising those answers to the public whilst under constant media and political attracts. It's time to declare an international moratorium on all new coal fired plants and the engineers to work. A moratorium would bring out an army of economic alarmist, but if the past chiefs of Easter Island had put a moratorium on statue building until they worked out how to cultivate trees, maybe their civilisation would still be here. Posted by: alan | November 12, 2011 10:09 PM
86 @ 85 - 'if the past chiefs of Easter Island had put a moratorium on statue building until they worked out how to cultivate trees, maybe their civilisation would still be here.' It's impossible to overstress this point when it comes to the dangers of AGW. Very well put. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 12, 2011 11:11 PM
87 I've only gotten half way through the comments, and find them very disappointing after the post. @Ethan - You've inadvertantly proven an additional point. Your statement that in science 'We demand that experiments and observations have their methods detailed and that the experiments be reproducible.' is perfectly on the mark. The 'scandal' at the CRU was not in 'hide the decline' emails, it was in the abuse of scientific method. The scientists at CRU did not publish their methods or observations. At this point do not have the complete original observations or the detailed methods used to generate the current data set from them. That is a scientific scandal and the scientific community would be well served by an effort to purge the unsupported portion of the data from the literature. For example, if the Berkeley work makes use of the CRU data (and my guess is that it does) that is a weakness of the results. The other scandal is the journals that published their results in faith that - as is not uncommon - the complete observations and methods would be provided, did not enforce their own rules regarding observations and methods due to the seniority of the authors. That lapse of the publisher is a second scandal. On the other hand, the Curry vs. Mueller issue is not a scientific scandal, it is a personal one. Mueller was leading a group which included Curry. The group had a concensus about how they would release their results via a published journal paper. Mueller decided he wanted to make a splash and arranged a press conference release without informing his colleagues. That makes him an egotistical twit, not a scientific fraud. And if you think about that, it should tell you your statements about Curry are off the mark. Mueller made statements to the press which he was attributing to his team without their consent. Curry was reacting to statements made in her name without her consent. My assumption is that the person who was ambushing (Mueller) would be more prepared than the person being ambushed (Curry). To present Curry's reaction as considered scientific statements in the same way as Mueller's doesn't make sense. And with that sort of beginning my tendency would be to write this whole episode off until it people cool down. Personally, I think Mueller should receive some sort of reproof for his actions, or it will reflect negatively on the science community. His publicity stunt has already limited the effectiveness of the research to convince the skeptical portion of the population. Posted by: Matt | November 12, 2011 11:45 PM
88 Myself: CO2 level actually went down during WW2. Orwellian Dilemma: 1941 saw a further increase as the Americans and Soviets joined the industrial race against Hitler and Hirohito. WRONG. The atmospheric CO2 levels during WW2 were: 1939 310.3 1940 310.4 1941 310.4 1942 310.3 1943 310.2 1944 310.1 1945 310.1 As I said before, what you say is the exact opposite of the truth. People like you who think they're entitled to their own facts are part of the problem. Posted by: Chris O'Neill | November 13, 2011 1:35 AM
89 Oil companies are legally required to maximize shareholder profits. This means the have to push the skeptical argument as far as it will go. This is not evil and its not remotely surprising. It's just business as usual, get over it. The real issue is always the truth, which sometimes is a little hard to nail down. The evidence definitely shows some warming. But we wouldn't need the word 'Climate' if it weren't changing all the time. We know that there have been warmer periods and colder periods in the recent geologic past 10,000 years or so. The mountain glaciers in Switzerland grew enormously in the 1600's bull dozing many small villages down their valleys. They have been retreating ever since. This corresponded with an absence of sun spots for nearly 80 years, called the maunder minimum. There are many records of very cold weather around the world during that period. Since then the sun has ben very active. So are mountain glaciers retreating because of CO2 or the solar cycle or something else? I don't think we know yet. Posted by: DDT | November 13, 2011 1:51 AM
90 The biggest problem is that this author is misguided in his analysis of the situation, taking a holier-than-thou attitude and calling somebody he doesn't agree with a 'Climate Fraud'. If any of this is based on data from CRU, you can toss your allegations! As Matt says just above, CRU has 'lost' their data and their methodology, so anything based on that is a moot point. You get all up in a twit with Judith Curry but really you should direct your ire to Phil Jones--he's responsible for gross negligence when it comes to his contribution to the data (remember what you said in the beginning? TRANSPARENCY! Yet with the CRU there was no transparency and still is no transparency and never will be any transparency.) So I call BS on this whole exercise--besides, Curry was caught being blindsided by this Muller dude, who really shouldn't be on anybody's 'scientific team' anymore--he's a grandstander. Best take on the situation with Muller can be found here: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/10/31/monday-mirthiness-the-best-team/#comments By the way, you may not agree, but there's one thing far worse than 'climate fraud', and that is taking certain people's comments out of context in order to sway public opinion against them in favor of your pet view. That isn't fraud--that's lying! Posted by: Rockyspoon | November 13, 2011 2:14 AM
91 DDT: So are mountain glaciers retreating because of CO2 or the solar cycle or something else? Certainly not solar cycles. The Sun is no stronger than it was more than 50 years ago. This fact is available. Why do you indulge in ignorant speculation? I don't think we know yet. So you speak for everyone, do you? Posted by: Chris O'Neill | November 13, 2011 3:55 AM
92 Who cares. No body is going to stop attempts at sharing prosperity around the world, except by war. More properous folks naturally want somebody to pay to preserve the basis of their prosperity, including a benign enviroment, which would be one we believe we can deal with Ok, i.e. one we are familiar with. So, let those who want to pay to use resources to reduce heat polution do so; let those who'd rather eat buy resources to do that; whoever still has money when the other runs out, wins, just like always; if the rich ones also have the best weapons, game over. If not, new game. ROTFFLMFAO Aside from that, great collumn Ethan. Posted by: john werneken | November 13, 2011 4:50 AM
93 A good examination of the data shows that for a ten-year set of measurements, the trend is rising temperatures. Considering that climate cycles run in the tens of thousands of years, I don't put much weight to tens of years. If we agree that the trend is up, we still don't agree on the cause. There are 20,000 year cycles going back millions of years, long before man and suvs existed. If we cannot predict the past, why believe we can predict the future? Posted by: Bart Johnson | November 13, 2011 5:59 AM
94 While watching all this back and forth about temperatures is interesting, it proves nothing on either side. Someone has to directly link temperature changes to human activity and no one has done that. The IPCC lists 16 factors of climate and states that scientists do not understand 13 of those factors at more than a 'low'. The part that makes me raise an eyebrow is that the IPCC lists CO2 as 'high' understanding. How can anyone understand one factor so high when the other factors are not understood well at all? Of course the answer is that you can't, but then Dr. Svensmark is trying to help on one factor and is being labeled a liar and heretic because it doesn't match up with the climate science storyline. Not unusual though, those that challenge the scientific dogma in history are often attacked and ostracized. Not often are they right, hopefully Svensmark will be given the chance to prove he is right before history writes a pretty scathing review of those that are refusing to listen. Posted by: VAengineer | November 13, 2011 7:29 AM
95 The scientists at CRU did not publish their methods or observations. At this point do not have the complete original observations or the detailed methods used to generate the current data set from them. This is complete, unmitigated nonsense. The CRU's methods were published in a number of papers going back well over a decade. 98% of the data were freely available to all long ago; the remaining 2% were covered by confidentiality agreements with other organisations, and were released a few months ago. Everything needed to replicate the CRU's work was available years ago. Posted by: MartinM | November 13, 2011 8:43 AM
96 Ethan, Jesus, can you please stop with the defense of climate change science doomsday crap? Nobody has shown conclusive evidence of anthropogenic global warming despite showing meager evidence of warming. Why is it doomsday in our modern era that the Earth may indeed be warming in miniscule imcrements when we know from Earth history that at multiple times in the past the Earth was hotter and life persisted into the present? So the Earth gets a little hotter? Big freakin' deal! Just read in Discover magazine that we know that the Sun will continue to burn hotter and brighter over the next billion years making Earth increasingly inhospitable to life. So, yes, in fact, the scientific trend will be for the Earth to be hotter and hotter for an eon to come until we are either consumed or left as a burnt cinder. How does humanity propose to combat that scenario? What this science is doing is making it easier for the political establishment to carbon tax us all to death. It is fundamentally anti-capitalist in nature and it's intent is to drag us into the socialist equal sharing of miseries that Churchill has warned us of. It's not so much that the science is wrong but the agenda behind the science that is so repugnant and transparent. And who can blame scientists for propagating the government agenda on all of this? Most scientists are on the government payroll or receive grants largely funded due to the benevolence of government. Scientists, though we can't live without them, are fundamentally uncoupled from the very capitalist system that pays the taxes to provide government resources for science. And then there is this phenomenon with most humans that makes them think that if they are an expert in one area that they can be an expert in all others. Theoretical physicists are the best example of this. They have all but done away with God and view the rest of us as pitiful at best for our quaint beliefs in a Creator. None of us has cornered on the market on knowledge and wisdom. So I find myself in a conundrum; Theoretical physicists totally exasperate me with their know-it-all mentality while providing the precious nectar of knowledge I most crave. I will continue to learn much about theoretical physics and the cosmos from you, Ethan, but I can't hold my tongue on this global warming/climate change agenda garbage. P.S. No hard feelings, totally love your blog! Posted by: Seth Thatcher | November 13, 2011 10:11 AM
97 'Most scientists are on the government payroll or receive grants largely funded due to the benevolence of government.' Aaah, the ignorant comments of neil craig parroted by another fool. How distressing. Posted by: dean | November 13, 2011 10:26 AM
98 @MartinM - The CRU did publish a number of papers but did not publish methods and observations. The science they are doing takes a set of observations, generates a 'data set' and then analyzes that data set. The methods to go from the observations to the data set have not been published and a portion of the direct observations is lost. The connection to actual observations is missing in part - that is a serious flaw. As I mentioned above, a lag between publication and providing the material to allow duplication is not uncommon, but for several of the CRU publications the methods and data for duplication were not provided to the publisher until several years and freedom of information requests had passed. As for the confidentiality agreements - there is no problem with confidentiality, but it shouldn't require a freedom of information request for CRU to state that some data was covered by confidentiality. There are other data sets - data sets without traceability should not be used for future work. Posted by: matt | November 13, 2011 10:27 AM
99 Okay, I did a quick internet search of scientists on government payroll versus private industry and it appears I am mistaken. I am however, not a fool. And I am not mistaken about the rest of it. Posted by: Seth Thatcher | November 13, 2011 10:45 AM
100 'I am however, not a fool. And I am not mistaken about the rest of it.' Let me get this straight. You quote a bunch of denialist horseshit. We point out that one of statements is horseshit. You respond not in the appropriate way: “These denialists are a lying sacks of shit, I should never believe anything they say.” But rather: “Well they were wrong about that, but that was just bad luck, so by the laws of probability, they are even more likely to be right about everything else.” So yes, you are most assuredly a fool. Posted by: elspi | November 13, 2011 11:08 AM
101 The science of global warming is pretty clear and strong; and well boring. Nobody would pay much attention to global warming predictions; if it was found to be caused by volcanoes or sperm whales. But the cause of global warming is human activity; and those very human activities are threatened with economic censure. Thus the economic interests (e.g. the oil industry) defend themselves. From this point on 2011, the global warming discussion is (as Jack Dawe has pointed out) political. And once science becomes economic and political; it becomes ripe for fraud. But even at its ripest; fraud in science does not pay (e.g. versus Maddock). Thus with rare exceptions, the word fraud is not appropriate. Being right about global warming (i.e. that it is caused by human activity), is like Galileo being right that the Eearth circles the sun; or like Adler or Lickint being right that the primary cause of lung cancer is cigarette smoking. ('In 1912, American Dr. Isaac Adler was the first to strongly suggest that lung cancer is related to smoking. In 1929, Fritz Lickint of Dresden, Germany, published a formal statistical evidence of a lung cancer-tobacco link, based on a study showing that lung cancer sufferers were likely to be smokers.' But note that, after Galileo or Linkert, the issue is no longer science; the issue as Jack Dawe tried unsuccessfully to point out is politics (i.e. power) and economics (i.e. money). It's not that the science doesn't matter; rather it is that the science is settled in terms of the data. More data about global warming may change the interpretation of what is the exact human activities and exact natural activities (e.g. whether minor or major) that contribute to global warming; but the fact (as in the data) of global warming will not change without a catastrophic change in human activity or natural activity. (e.g. a total economic worldwide meltdown; a giant asteroid colliding into Earth) At this point 2011, the issue of global warming is not a scientific issue (except to refine and continually improve the data in little details and better models). The scientist kiss-ass to power and money (whether regarding the solar system 1634, cigarettes in 1929, or global warming in 2011) is no longer a scientist. The skeptic of the interpretation may still be a scientist; but the skeptic of the facts (in each of these cases) is no longer a scientist. So to agree with Ethan: Global warming is definitely caused by human activity. No science will change that fact; the data points simply are beyond dispute. But to also agree with Jack Dawe: The necessary human discussions, decisions and activities to be done are engineering, political, economic (both personal and professional). The science is over except for more and better detail. A particular scientist who deceives himself or herself) or who coops to poltics of money is really not scientifically important. Posted by: OKThen | November 13, 2011 11:59 AM
102 ' I am however, not a fool. And I am not mistaken about the rest of it.' Yes, you are a monumental fool. Your implication is that science can be ignored because all of the people working on it are funded by governments around the world (which, in a short attempt to cover your butt, you admitted isn't true), and so their work can be completely ignored. Not that you read or try to understand any of the issues, but because in your little philosophical sphere that assertion alone is enough to cast dishonor and lack of substance on anyone. It's not clear why anyone takes the things you, or people who think like you, say concerning issues surrounding science at all seriously. Posted by: dean | November 13, 2011 12:47 PM
103 I agree with OKThen, the science has come in, we're already feeling the advance elements of the decline in environmentally sensitive areas. Like today, with dry hot winds out of the West over the Llano Estacado (in mid-November!), turning the sky brown. Similiar conditions obtain in North China and Sub-Saharan Africa, and are spreading from there. The question is, why Deniers continue to deny. But maybe I can understand it. You could be living in a part of the country more afflicted by floods than drought. Maybe you take 'the long view' that everybody's going to die anyway, while the band plays on. It's definitely discomfitting to be a supporter and believer in the ultimate value of free enterprise, as I am, when the work of free enterprise blows up in your face every few years either economically and ecologically, and you have to rebuild from that. But when are we going to start rebuilding, when are we going to start doing something about this problem, and how? We're definitely not going to do it with half the literate population continuing to protest that something that's going to kill our civilization isn't happening at all. Speaking of Churchill, as many of us conservatives are wont to do, it's as if Churchill in the 1930s decided that Nazism really wasn't happening, it was just some sort of jolly Germanic beer-drinking society, nasty when drunk but otherwise not a problem. We can all imagine how World War Two might have gone if Churchill had been that kind of Denier, in his time. Not to begin rationally discussing this problem not only leaves the gate open for the fascist stand-ins that are perpetuating climate degradation to do their worst -- by which I mean elements like the mining free-booters in the tropics, or the CO2 emissions defenders in American politics. It also makes inevitable some sort of radical politics, beyond the encroaching disaster, a kind of world environmentalist Stalinism that may be as murderous in its own right as the rotten climate is ever going to be. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 13, 2011 12:51 PM
104 The CRU did publish a number of papers but did not publish methods and observations. Rubbish. The methods are in the papers. Have you read them? As for the data, 98% was already freely available, as I stated, and the rest is now. Posted by: MartinM | November 13, 2011 1:15 PM
105 All very interesting. However, the real issue isn't warming, cooling or leveling. The real issue is advancing the dubious contention that it's anthropomorphically induced, which none of this does. Such a contention is politically motivated dogma, not science. Posted by: BHirsh | November 13, 2011 1:19 PM
106 The CRU did publish a number of papers but did not publish methods and observations. I look to reading your indepth refutation of the science in the peer-reviewed journal of your choice. Posted by: MartinM | November 13, 2011 1:21 PM 107 No idea how I managed that. I meant to quote this from BHirsh: Such a contention is politically motivated dogma, not science. Posted by: MartinM | November 13, 2011 1:24 PM
108 The author takes the BEST data at face value and goes from there. But there are many proven cases where raw data has been 'adjusted' for various reasons, miraculously always in a direction to increase the apparent rate of warming. I believe it was CRU (I could be mistaken) which had destroyed the original raw data and we now only have the 'adjusted' data. So, is this incompetence or fraud, by the author's standards? How reliable are conclusions based on BEST data when the underlying manipulations of the raw data is suspect? But proving a high rate of warming is only one hurdle for warming alarmists. ALL of the thousands of pat changes in global temperature have had natural causes, but this one, so their argument goes, does not have natural causes but is human-caused. The burden of proof lies with the proposers of the novel theory, and so far there is no proof that natural causes are not sufficient. It is simply not science to say the warming of today is coincident with burning of fossil fuels, so the cause is the burning of fossil fuels. Then the next hurdle for the alarmists is to prove that if we cease burning fossil fuels, if we wreck the global economy, that not only will warming cease, but the economic catastrophe will be less devastating than the warming would have been. So far, we have only self-serving computer models, completely opaque and yet to be subjected to the scrutiny demanded by science, that predict catastrophes to come. These models so far have completely failed in all their most significant predictions. Posted by: geezer117 | November 13, 2011 1:59 PM
109 'Such a contention is politically motivated dogma, not science.' If you go back over either this post or the I AM A SCIENTIST post, let alone the avalanche of comments following both of them, I think the science of AGW speaks for itself. (If you have ears to listen with). As for the politics -- If the political motivation behind majority AGW is to save free enterprise, to save democratic institutions, to save a vulnerable population, and to save politics from either nihilist, exploitative Denialists or Far-Left Population Reduction Eliminationists, wouldn't you say the politics is sound? Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 13, 2011 2:12 PM
110 The real issue is advancing the dubious contention that it's anthropomorphically induced, which none of this does. People who make comments like that typically do not have a clue about the science. To show that you are not arguing from a position of ignorance, please summarise the argument, as you understand it, for current climate change being largely anthropogenic in origin. Posted by: Richard Simons | November 13, 2011 2:41 PM
111 Ethan, I've tried to post a few comments over there, but Curry seems to be actively deleting them soon after they appear. So I'd give up trying to actually set there record straight on her blog. And at this point, I think it quite clear that yes, she is definitely and knowingly engaging in fraudulent practices. Posted by: ScentOfViolets | November 13, 2011 2:56 PM
112 I may be the only reader who is not a scientist, but I have learned much from the article and comments. I am an engineer, have worked on a score of nukes, two score fossil fuel power plants, and assessed advanced technology for decades (what is coming, what are the barriers, and when). It is obvious to me that climate change has irreversibly injured America. Our scientific debate focuses now on whether this Full Professor or that one is a fraud, lying about the effects of the combustion of carbon. We now charge liar, via nonlinear regression analysis. Many of commenters here hold that fossil fuel producers, large corporations, are liars, frauds and possibly criminals. My position, from decades of study, is that there is no real alternative prime fuel. other than carbon (and uranium to a limited degree), for base loaded supply for advanced societies. This is true now, or barring a break through in an intensely studied field, will be true for as far as technical estimates can foresee. All 'green' energies will always cost more than society can bear, due to inherent limitations. High cost is the reason that they have never been killer apps. Carbon combustion is, and will remain the bed rock of the industrial revolution. Carbon is abundant, and cheap. The proof is the market. Trillions in investments await a better mouse trap. Cheap energy is the holy grail of engineering. There are two billion people on earth who earn less than $1 per day. Without the benefits of carbon combustion, they will die faster, faster than flies. Thus their governments will never cease in their urgent quest to burn carbon. China has surpassed America in its coal consumption; India is trying. America can no more stop, or reverse this demand, that forbid ocean waves to move. The US could vanish today; it would only change the positive slope of the global carbon consumption curve. If carbon combustion is a real, near term threat to human life, mankind faces certain mass die off. It is quite possible that the United States of America will cease to exist, as we know it, within the next generation. This will largely be the result of our energy policies. Our margin of error is thin. External war, or internal dictatorship, are real possibilities. Climate change rivals WMD as an existential threat to the survival of the coming generation. Ergo, I request both corporate CEOs and full Professors to begin a candid, humble dialog on how we contend with the effects of carbon combustion. Posted by: R. L. Hails Sr. P. E. | November 13, 2011 3:06 PM
113 ScentOfViolets, I saw one of your comments there late last night (my time), and I thank you for trying. I've pretty much given up trying to set the record straight with a number of scientists; my most recent attempt was with Lubos over on his blog: http://motls.blogspot.com/2011/10/best-judith-curry-unbelievably-flat.html#more But if you can't convince someone with sound math and their own data, they're obviously being dishonest. I have no second thoughts about calling this behavior fraudulent. Posted by: Ethan Siegel | November 13, 2011 4:14 PM
114 the best part of this article is where the author got the pic for 'climate fraud.' LMAO!!! Posted by: Clive Perring | November 13, 2011 6:13 PM
115 geezer117: But there are many proven cases where raw data has been 'adjusted' for various reasons, miraculously always in a direction to increase the apparent rate of warming. Yes, Roy Spencer does that as he details here (search for dumb). He is a raving alarmist, isn't he? Posted by: Chris O'Neill | November 13, 2011 6:27 PM
116 Even the IPCC and the BBC are backing off a bit on CAGW . Richard Black-BBC on new draft IPCC report . http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-15698183 . “..And for the future, the draft gives even less succour to those seeking here a new mandate for urgent action on greenhouse gas emissions, declaring: “Uncertainty in the sign of projected changes in climate extremes over the coming two to three decades is relatively large because climate change signals are expected to be relatively small compared to natural climate variability”…” . “..There is “low confidence” that tropical cyclones have become more frequent, “limited-to-medium evidence available” to assess whether climatic factors have changed the frequency of floods, and “low confidence” on a global scale even on whether the frequency has risen or fallen…” . and it continues Posted by: Ed Forbes | November 13, 2011 7:23 PM
117 > What is the 'ideal' planetary temperature? For us, here, now, the temperature during the onset of the Industrial Age. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 6:04 AM
118 'Like I said back on the I AM A SCIENTIST comments page, the facts and implications about Global Warming are straightforward and difficult to misinterpret' You also said a lot of other things. Like how it couldn't be lil ol us changing the climate and how it was me posting that made global warming in your town, and other seriously bonkers pronouncements. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 6:14 AM
119 'You have just accused another scientist of 'fraud'. This is an extremely serious accusation -- perhaps the most serious professional accusation you can make... based on... what? A newspaper interview' No, based on their statements and their data. You know, evidence. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 6:21 AM
120 'What hasn't been proven yet is that this warming ... is exclusively anthropogenic' That's because you haven't read the IPCC reports that state the several forcings changing climate at this time. Human factors are much larger than the others, but they're not the only ones. Now, given your lack of knowledge on what the climate science says, how about popping over to http://www.ipcc.ch and reading what the science says? Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 6:29 AM
121 'The 'scandal' at the CRU was not in 'hide the decline' emails, it was in the abuse of scientific method.' ANY evidence of that? No? 'The scientists at CRU did not publish their methods or observations.' 1) They published all their data. 2) The published their methods. 'The methods to go from the observations to the data set have not been published' Yes they have. The fact is you're not a scientist, therefore you won't be told about them and would have to research to find them. This being work that can only prove you wrong, you do not do this. 'The connection to actual observations is missing in part - that is a serious flaw' Then go to the BEST site and get their entire dataset and their entire method. This denailist meme is why BEST was started. Guess what: they don't significantly disagree with either CRU's dataset, NOAA's dataset or indeed any of the other datasets of global temperature that aren't CRU's. Did you EVER consider that there were other global datasets out there? Also note that despite three investigations, no misconduct affecting the data was found. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 6:41 AM
122 'How can anyone understand one factor so high when the other factors are not understood well at all?' Because CO2's effect is a result of well understood QM processes. How can someone not understand that you can understand something really well and other things not so well? Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 7:02 AM
123 Just remember, folks, using the word 'denialist' over and over again makes you right! It's magic!!! Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 14, 2011 9:15 AM
124 Nope, being right makes you right. It's FACT! Have you got any facts? Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 9:29 AM
125 Sorry, computing standard errors for whichever interval chosen to find a trend doesn't cut it. As I see the problem, selection of an interval should be treated as a random draw from the sample. Hence, standard error should be calculated from all possible draws. So if you're looking at 13 year intervals, select all possible 13 year intervals. Use those to get the standard error. That approach will also highlight that there are way too few 13-year intervals to warrant much confidence. Posted by: Jim | November 14, 2011 9:59 AM
126 @118 Not to beat a thoroughly dead horse, but -- for the last time -- when I said 'li'l ole us' couldn't cause Global Warming, I was being IRONIC for the purposes of illustrating how a rational shuck-and-jive could be used to get out from under the worry about Global Warming. I was using it entirely in the sense of DR STRANGELOVE - Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and LOVE the Bomb. Which was hardly a film promoting nuclear warfare, any more than I have promoted Denialism in any of my comments. I also said I couldn't possibly worry about such conundrums as nuclear war, the Great Silence, Hugo de Garis' Artilect War, etc. As I said on the I AM A SCIENTIST comments page, I'm not a scientist, I'm a writer. A screenwriter, at the present moment. The subjects described above are also 100% of the subject matter of my current screenplays, which should show that I am neither dismissive of them (including Global Warming), nor 'not worried.' More broadly, your consistent attempt to misconstrue what I've said -- if sincere -- shows just how hobbled an otherwise rational mind can become, when confronted with subtle, non-black-and-white arguments. This is what I think bothers you. That I'm just as furious at the Stalinist wing of AGW as I am at the Denialists, and maybe more so because they're exploiting the fact that they're right, in this case, for moral and political gain, rather than to bother address fixing the problem. For the last time: like a driver on the road, you can be right about the law, right about AGW, and still end up dead, either by the effects of climate change, or by the world dictatorship that may arise out of climate change, if nothing's done about it. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 14, 2011 10:30 AM
127 being right makes you right. I'll take 'pointless tautologies' for one thousand, Alex! Have you got any facts? 'There has been no significant warming since 1995.'--Phil 'Hide the Decline' Jones. Is that 'facty' enough for you, Wow? Posted by: AGWSkeptic | November 14, 2011 10:50 AM
128 'I'll take 'pointless tautologies' for one thousand, Alex!' Nope, it was a fact. You asserted that calling someone 'denier' makes you right, but this isn't what's happening. If you're right, then you're right. Whether you call someone a denier or not doesn't change it. 'This exercise simply shows that the decadal fluctuations are too large to allow us to make decisive conclusions about long term trends based on close examination of periods as short as 13 to 15 years.' Now, since there HAS been a significant warming trend since 1995, you're wrong. Is that fact enough for you? Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 10:58 AM
129 Just pointing out that you were nuts on I Am A Scientist thread, Jack. And this is the first time you called it 'being ironic'. With or without caps lock on. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 11:00 AM
130 'That approach will also highlight that there are way too few 13-year intervals to warrant much confidence.' Given that the data is out there, have you actually tried this, Jim? No. Because if you actually do the 'pick each 13 year possibility' you get a bloody good warming trend out of far far more 13-year samples than a cooling one. Tamino did one such test and so has a regular poster over at SkS. But you can go get the BEST data yourself and apply your test. Let us know the count of 'warming' to 'cooling' trends you get. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 11:02 AM
131 Intriguing post I thought it was great, so keep at it. Posted by: Kyle | November 14, 2011 11:13 AM
132 @129 It's my job to be nuts on occasion. I'm a writer. When it comes to pure science, I make every attempt to separate the crazy from the rational stuff. But, due to the potential economic, political, philosophical, and religious fallout, AGW is an absolutely gonzo subject. I submit that it's impossible to write meaningful about it without on occasion coming across more than a little whacky yourself, no matter how sane you are. To testify to that fact, I can offer nothing better than about half your own comments, along with your absolutely blindered inability to see where I was coming from, on this and the previous page. That's my final volley. I'll let you sink the already low-in-the-water boat of argument as you see fit. I have a screenplay about The Great Silence to finish up. Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 14, 2011 11:15 AM
133 @132, then why did you proclaim others going nuts? To fluff up your standing. And I posted what I did to puncture that hubris. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 11:16 AM
134 @ 133 This comments section is like molasses. Last word, then you have the last word -- If I implied that you were nuts, it goes with the terrain, but I apologize. Beyond that, the other thing you said, about fluffing up my standing and hubris and the rest -- To fluff up WHAT STANDING? 'Jack Dawe' is an anagram of, not my real name. I'm not a professor, not an habitual commenter on this blog or any blog except maybe SCRIPTSHADOWS. And nobody over there reads STARTS WITH A BANG or gives a shit about theoretical physics. I'm just another solitary thinker with a rudimentary science (but advanced science-fiction) background, who likes to toss ideas up and see them batted around. If you think I've got some other axe to grind, that's your problem, not mine -- Posted by: Jack Dawe | November 14, 2011 11:26 AM
135 Pop along to your post #31 'I'm starting to see how this flak of blind opposition hurled up by Denialists can drive someone bonkers -- as in the case of 'Wow,' ' It's fairly obvious that there's no 'hint' there at all. Pretty black-and-white. You could have said 'like I did over on the I am a scientist thread'. Especially if you're going to then claim that your job is sometimes to go nuts. And as to 'what standing', the answer I give is 'yes, what standing'. Which is why you try to paint yourself as 'the moderate, adult voice'. You know, not one to go nuts. Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 12:04 PM
136 Or, indeed, just not name anyone. There's no need to give examples, is there. If you want to talk about being low in the water, your post 31 was pretty submersible... Posted by: Wow | November 14, 2011 12:08 PM
137 I am glad I have had the chance to read this article and the associated comments. Though I have academic training in science, I have experience in post-university real world problem solving ... and as a global society we do this very badly. Technology has improved immensely in the past 50 years. Relatively, society has improved rather little. This is a system problem, part of which is that brains and material and financial resources are not being used to solve critical problems. There are many ecosystem disasters in progress and almost nothing being done in a practical way ... engineering ... to address them. What is causing these disastrous changes is an academic question ... what to do to mitigate and repair the damage is not. Take the recent flooding around the world, for example, and the disruption this causes ... why is one question, what to do about it, another and, in my view, more important. Posted by: Peter Burgess | November 14, 2011 12:33 PM
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