Why do so many Americans support a neofascist? | The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich
Robert Reich
Premiered Apr 27, 2024
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The Coffee Klatch with Robert Reich
Heather and I take a deep dive into why so many Americans are supporting a neofascist for president. Trump is the consequence rather than the cause of several major problems that have worsened over four decades — problems that have undermined the American middle class, and caused a substantial number of people to become angry, anxious, and cynical.
Please pull up a chair and grab a cub of coffee.
Transcript
- 0:00
- it is the Saturday coffee clutch with
- Heather loft house and yours truly
- Robert R uh and uh we thought we would
- do something a little bit different
- today than we normally do and that is to
- take a deeper dive into why we are where
- we are as a nation today why do 40% of
- Americans or maybe more um find a
- dictator a a sort of Proto fascist uh
- somebody who they actually would
- consider voting for why are we so split
- as a nation where did this all come from
- uh and Heather um I thought that this
- would be something that would be
- interesting I know and I'm looking
- forward to it and the first thing that
- comes to mind is you me being psychic in
- 1994 I mean you predicted this you said
- things this is what is going to happen
- have you all seen it let's take a
- look my friends we are on the way to
- becoming a two teered
- 1:01
- Society composed of a few
- winners at a larger group of Americans
- Left Behind whose anger and whose
- disillusionment is easily
- manipulated once
- unbottled Mass resentment can poison the
- very fabric of society the moral
- Integrity of a society replacing
- ambition With Envy replacing tolerance
- with hate
- today the targets of that rage and we
- see it around us you can only read the
- daily paper you don't have far to
- look today the targets of those ra that
- rage are immigrants and Welfare mothers
- and government
- officials and gays and an IL defined
- counterculture but as the middle class
- continues to
- erode who will be the targets
- 2:01
- tomorrow well that is a little bit
- sobering oh it's so it's so so it's no
- it's sobering because I was looking so
- much younger oh that and I was pretty
- goodlook at that time I'm now Bob come
- on you are come on not not but I did no
- I did uh understand one thing and that
- was that widening inequality at the rate
- we were going then even then uh was
- dangerous for our society but you
- pictured it this level I mean it wasn't
- just inequality is a problem everybody
- we really need to fix it it was like
- look I am looking into the future I am
- seeing the trends and no one heeded what
- nobody heeded it but I think Heather was
- not that difficult because history is uh
- is full of instances I mean look at what
- happened in Germany in the 1930s and and
- in Italy and when people are uh feel
- like the game is rigged against them and
- they feel like they've nothing really to
- 3:00
- lose and they're angry and frustrated
- and anxious uh they will be fodder uh
- exploited by a demagogue I know
- eventually and this is exactly what's
- happened uh but the point that I was I
- think I was making there and certainly
- looking back uh would make uh is that
- Donald Trump is the is the consequence
- not the cause uh of many of these deep
- problems that America has yes and you've
- said that before and so but what so what
- give us specifics can you give us what
- exactly if you had to pick I don't know
- three things four things two things well
- the the the basic problem is that for 40
- years right uh you have a large number
- of Americans the typical Americans wage
- adjusted for inflation uh has not gone
- anywhere uh in terms of real purchasing
- power uh and this is so violative of the
- 4:02
- American dream because uh you know in
- the 1930s we were in a depression and
- then we had a war but post-war America
- certainly between
- 1946 and 1978 79 was a land in which the
- middle class kept growing and everybody
- expected justifiably expected that they
- would do better in their own lifetimes
- and their children would do better than
- they
- and then starting in the late 0s really
- starting with Ronald Reagan's
- Administration everything reversed
- itself uh and instead of everybody doing
- better the middle class started
- shrinking and people found that they
- were doing worse but the narrative
- didn't change right pull yourself up by
- your bootstraps The Narrative didn't
- change that's right and that is that's
- interesting I mean the American dream
- was still something that people felt
- that they were
- 5:00
- uh they aspired to uh
- and they they they
- avoided facing the reality I mean uh
- large numbers of middle class women went
- into paid work uh in the late 70s now we
- say it's because all these wonderful
- opportunities opened for women uh but
- actually if you look at the data what
- you see is that women went into paid
- work because they had to to maintain the
- standard of living of their families
- because male wages were going down right
- uh why were male wages going down in
- part because uh the the country was
- losing uh good unionized manufacturing
- jobs why were we losing good unionized
- manufacturing jobs uh because the
- structure of the economy shifted when
- the people who are now called private
- equity and hedge fund managers but were
- then corporate Raiders they took over
- corporations or threatened to take over
- 6:01
- corporations that did not maximize share
- values so up until that time and that's
- roughly the late 70s you had
- corporations that believed in and their
- heads of the corporations believed in
- stakeholder capitalism you did a great
- article I'm plugging it for you on the
- New York time in the New York Times
- about Sears I remember that well Sears
- robok was a good example Sears robu uh
- for you know for all its years uh had an
- employee uh profit sharing plan and so
- if you were a Sears employee by the
- 1950s you had and you you had started at
- Sears even in the 20s uh you had
- accumulated a huge amount of money I
- mean you you could retire not only with
- a pension but you could retire with a a
- a a big chunk of Sears robu you were one
- of the owners um but all of that changed
- 7:02
- dramatically the only people who became
- owners were the private Equity people
- yep and the uh you know
- the vulture
- capitalists um so the the actual
- structure of the economy because of
- globalization because of the pressures
- on these companies to maximize
- shareholder returns uh because of the
- the the attempt to bust unions which
- really was successful Heather in the
- 1950s and
- 60s when I grew up
- 35% of all of the workers in the private
- sector were in unions I know uh by now
- it's
- 6% yeah 35% yeah down to 6% it's nothing
- well you have no bargaining leverage so
- there's a well we'll talk about that so
- counterveiling power gone but it's so I
- 8:02
- mean even last week or whenever it was a
- whole bunch of Republican Governors
- wrote a letter that said we really
- unions are really let's not as it
- related to um the VW plant um and who
- was it Mercedes in the south I mean they
- a lot of people have do not want unions
- gone but there we are seeing that there
- are some efforts that are peing right
- well the interesting thing about where
- we are right now is that unions have
- become more popular than they've been in
- 30 years uh and there are more employees
- who say we want to join a union that's
- it but we can't right so the numbers
- haven't caught up to the interest no
- because uh because the
- anti-un is still there I mean big
- companies uh are are are anti-union look
- at look at Tesla for example yes I mean
- the same week that Elon Musk has the
- 9:00
- Tesla shareholders vote on whether he's
- going to get a gigantic I mean $47
- billion package pay package 47 billion
- billion billion I mean the same week uh
- he lays off 14,000 Tesla workers now
- these Mass
- layoffs uh were something that did not
- occur they occurred during the
- Depression because uh companies had no
- choice uh but for profitable companies
- to lay off workers in large numbers two
- Monon Severance and two month SE for the
- Tesla workers I mean workers would been
- laid off uh you know I know a lot of
- people who have been laid off for
- periods of time it is not pleasant it is
- of course it is a horrible experience to
- lay off 14,000 workers instead of
- treating workers as assets to be
- developed what you have modern CEOs are
- treating workers as costs to be cut and
- these are the same CEOs who are making
- 10:00
- 20 30 40 million a year yep and that's
- not even to
- mention Tesla and right the $47 billion
- pay package that's it okay so decline in
- unions you talked a little bit about
- globalization more on that well um I
- think that by the 1990s and I was part
- of an Administration that wanted NAFTA
- the North American free trade act and
- wanted China to join the World Trade
- Organization uh I think it was a it was
- conventional wisdom that trade was
- inevitable Bill Clinton used to give
- speeches about you know you can't stop
- trade it's you can't stop globalization
- uh and uh there was a memory of the
- Smoot Holly act during the
- 1930s uh isolationist uh act uh tried to
- preserve jobs which backfired yeah uh
- because less trade meant less Commerce
- uh and it meant fewer jobs yeah uh but
- uh it became uh a kind of a touchstone
- 11:02
- by the 90s without any thinking about it
- the trade was good yeah uh and the lack
- of thinking and I was say I was labor
- secretary the lack of thinking had to do
- with what happens to the people who lose
- jobs because of trade do we have a plan
- do we have a system in place for making
- them whole again for getting them good
- jobs for U Tiding their families over
- while they are looking for good jobs we
- didn't have anything no
- and then came the financial crisis of
- 2008 uh and Heather where were you
- during the financial crisis during that
- the the Great Recession so I was I had
- just I landed a job so I'm very
- fortunate I land I had very low rent and
- I had just gotten my master's degrees
- from UC Berkeley and I was working in
- global health so I basically avoided the
- recession in that I spent a lot of time
- on the ground in Africa and Asia and I
- had had this job and so many of my
- 12:02
- family and friends were affected by it
- far greater than I was I happened to be
- able to Band-Aid it in this way I think
- the Great Recession was a trauma oh for
- the country oh was yeah and for people
- like me so I was in how old was I 30ish
- is that right that's right no you were
- 15 no I'm serious I was 30 I was born in
- 77 um and there yeah no people it was
- devastating and it was in a way as a
- 30-year-old to process that it's
- different than you're when a kid and so
- for sure a lot of my cohort and my
- friends and my colleagues I mean it was
- like wow this was the first time they
- really felt it being on their own well
- see this is U this is a tripartite
- problem number one you have
- globalization without any effort to help
- people cope with loss of jobs from
- globalization number two you have the
- demise of unions because companies are
- trying to maximize shareholder returns
- 13:01
- and number three you have the
- financialization of the economy
- deregulation of Wall Street which led to
- the financial crisis many Americans
- before the financial crisis I talked
- about coping mechanisms as women went
- into the paid Workforce another coping
- mechanism was to use your homes as piggy
- banks uh basically get uh bank loans
- using the House's collateral line of
- credit or a second mortgage
- after the Great Recession after the
- explosion of the housing market in 2008
- uh that was no longer possible yeah and
- so what we had in this country after the
- financial crisis of 2008 and the bank
- bailout y was the emergence of the
- Occupy Movement and also at the same
- time another movement on the right which
- was the Tea Party Movement yes I got it
- 14:00
- but can we just say we're using the past
- tense now and we are talking about the
- past but there are lingering effects
- from that the Great Recession that are
- still oh absolutely so I mean of course
- absolutely in fact if you are a young
- person today and I know this because
- even young college students they have
- student debt but they can't get into the
- housing market right uh they can't we
- didn't we stopped building housing uh
- they can't even expect to start their
- family
- because they don't have enough money but
- private Equity is doing just fine
- private Equity is doing got a lot of
- housing to choose from uh so the yes the
- structural problems that started in the
- late 70s early 80s are still with us and
- that's my point Heather because you've
- got a large number of people in this
- country who are anxious who are
- frustrated upset who who feel like the
- game is rigged against them and it is
- rigged against them uh and so they
- 15:02
- naturally U now I'm not justifying I'm
- explaining there a difference they are
- attracted to a demagogue who promises to
- make America great again you have told
- me a great story before about being on
- the ground you were doing one of your
- documentaries and they dragged you
- somewhere and you were interviewing
- workers on the ground basically about
- where they were tell this story for
- people who haven't heard it well it was
- 2 15 at a time when Hillary Clinton and
- Jeb Bush remember Jeb Bush were both the
- assumed heads of their parties in terms
- of the nominations for uh president in
- 2016 uh and I was going around doing
- kind of a free floating focus group uh
- for research and also for a film I was
- doing uh and talking to many of the
- Union people that I knew from 20 years
- before and their children uh but it was
- all it was the Industrial Midwest uh the
- 16:02
- Rust Belt the South farmers in Missouri
- and I would ask them who they thought
- were the best prospects and the people
- that they were attracted to for
- president the next year uh was it Jeff
- Bush Hillary Clinton and they kept on
- saying to me and I couldn't believe it
- we were very interested in two people uh
- and the same PE person would say this uh
- either Bernie Sanders or Donald Trump
- and I'd say no that can't possibly be
- they're on opposite ends of continum but
- you no uh they they liked Bernice
- Sanders and Donald Trump because they
- weren't politicians they were not
- traditional establishment figures and
- they were talking authentically about
- real stuff and and they felt heard by
- them both and they felt that they were
- both of them reflecting the
- conversations that these people average
- 17:00
- Americans in the Rust Belt in the south
- in the in the midwest were having about
- over the kitchen table y uh now Heather
- it is very important to understand that
- American populism which is basically a
- rejection of Elites and the
- establishment American populism is the
- most important force in American
- politics today Joe Biden is the perfect
- president because he is so much of a
- populist himself uh if he let his
- populist side be shown I mean he's um
- he's a labor guy uh he's from Scranton
- Pennsylvania my hometown uh he's a u
- just an average good
- American uh and he gets it he gets it
- when he walks a picket line he
- understands what those workers are doing
- and why they're on a picket line but he
- feels like less of a messiah to these
- 18:01
- people right this 40% you keep talking
- about I mean what are they seeing in
- Donald Trump that they're not seeing in
- the guy that cares about Labor Messiah
- is the word you used and that's an
- important word because what a lot of
- people who have been just feel like
- they've been treated so badly by
- employers by the economy by the elites
- by The Establishment for so many years
- what they see in Donald Trump is almost
- a
- religious figure a messiah somebody
- who's going to deliver them from where
- they have been uh and he is obviously a
- complete fraud I know uh and a scumbag
- uh but he plays that role Bernie Sanders
- could have and did for a while of course
- now I think one so you as Secretary of
- Labor you really thought about workers
- how everything was changing how do we
- change things on the home front I think
- that the Biden Administration Biden and
- 19:01
- the inflation reduction Act is trying to
- do something similar as it creates these
- labor standards with all the stuff that
- comes out of the IRA and with these you
- know Green jobs and that kind of thing I
- think unions hopefully will be on an
- upswing as it relates to that and
- Tethered to those requirements what do
- you think about that is that I mean I
- think you're 100% correct this is the
- side of Joe Biden's
- Administration uh that is not being
- talked about it's very difficult for
- people to believe it there's such
- cynicism which is another Legacy of what
- we're talking about uh but Biden has
- done several things to reverse the
- currents the trends that got us into
- this predicament right uh strengthening
- unions I mean his National Labor
- Relations Board is one of the most
- pro-union and activist I remember uh
- going after corporate monopolies hello
- his antitrust division of the justice
- department and Federal Trade Commission
- 20:01
- are the most activist trustbusters big
- corporate big Tech and we're talking
- about grocery companies and this is this
- is very important and it's very
- interesting and important at the same
- time uh he's going after he he is the
- first Democratic Administration not to
- load his economic team with people from
- Wall Street yeah uh in fact he doesn't
- have Wall streeters uh this is below the
- radar but Heather it's important because
- it means that the economic advice he's
- getting uh is not infected by the
- financialization of the economy
- yeah I know okay so it's been what' you
- say 40 years you 50 you've been watching
- all this you've been watching all this
- happen yes so what else can we do I mean
- the Biden Administration is doing that
- so there's this and Trump has just
- ridden this wave I mean he is playing it
- beautifully well I think that if there
- is a second Biden
- 21:01
- Administration please God um I think he
- will move into the areas that need
- attention uh Child Care Elder Care
- housing availability uh and also getting
- big money out of politics this is the
- agenda y uh and the Democrats have got
- to become economic populists to the
- extent that this is an economic
- and they think they are don't they well
- they think they are but uh actually when
- it comes to standing up to Wall Street
- and big corporations Joe Biden is
- willing to do it yeah uh but many
- Democrats uh frankly that's where their
- money campaign money comes from so
- they're still reluctant and we've talked
- about this at nauseum but the messaging
- around it needs to improve right well it
- does need to improve but uh what does
- that mean what it means is that
- Democrats have been have to be willing
- 22:01
- uh to name names uh to blame certain
- corporations uh to not vilify but to
- explain to the public why we are at
- where we are which has a lot to do with
- power and the accumulation of wealth and
- power at the top uh not just in terms of
- individuals but also big corporations
- and that is a populist economic message
- which is true it has the virtue of being
- true uh and it is important that the
- public understand this one thing you
- said the other day to me I think it was
- even over coffee we just didn't wasn't
- this coffee you said um we talked about
- the labor beat so journalists used to
- follow labor and there were stories and
- that you don't see that anymore and that
- is also a problem or a symptom or both
- well it's it's a symptom and it's a
- problem both that is the labor reporters
- green Steve Greenhouse is a good example
- for the New York Times
- uh uh Steve used to put uh on the front
- 23:02
- page of the New York Times stories about
- what uh organized labor was doing what
- they were trying to do why it was
- important what their goals were and so
- people understood organized labor as a
- vital and important political force but
- as union busting took over in the really
- in the 90s and at the beginning part of
- the of this century uh these big media
- organizations got rid of their labor
- reporters they didn't need them anymore
- they felt well labor is an old story uh
- if you go from 35% of the private sector
- Workforce unionized down to what uh 6%
- uh then why even talk about it but you
- can see how that is a uh a a a
- self-fulfilling prophecy
- y so I don't want to keep you longer
- than you are able to stay
- no I'm loving this clut are you kidding
- 24:00
- me it's so great it's like it's a
- different level it's so well I don't
- also don't want to just be dactic and
- professorial we want that we want that
- don't we I do they do okay well um um
- but I I I there's a lot more to say
- about all of this uh but I think that if
- there is one lesson here it's that the
- inflation reduction act and Joe Biden
- and the direction he's going in uh are
- extremely important uh people don't know
- it it's very hard to get it across but
- the historic context that I've provided
- is something that may be helpful hope it
- is helpful to all of you and um thanks
- for being with
- us please join us again next Saturday
- [Music]
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