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US ELECTION 2024 HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON DISCUSSES Democracy Docket: Trump, Project 2025, the Supreme Court and the Election with Hillary Rodham Clinton PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UpNrRNL8Gw&t=92s Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Peter Burgess
Trump, Project 2025, the Supreme Court and the Election with Hillary Rodham Clinton Democracy Docket 126K subscribers ... 922,247 views ... 46K likes Apr 19, 2024 Defending Democracy — Complete Podcast Hillary Rodham Clinton, former U.S. secretary of state and 2016 presidential nominee, joins Defending Democracy to talk with Marc Elias about the harm Donald Trump has done to our democracy and America’s global standing. Plus, Secretary Clinton talks about her thoughts on the GOP’s plans for 2024, Supreme Court justices and President Joe Biden. Sign up for Democracy Docket's premium membership! Subscribe here: https://www.democracydocket.com/member/ Listen to this episode wherever you get your podcasts: https://www.democracydocket.com/defen... 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Democracy Docket Transcript 0:00 joining me today is a true American hero former United States Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is here on defending democracy I'm Mark Elias let's get started welcome secretary Clinton to defending democracy thank you so much Mark it's wonderful to be with you today so I want to start with something that I've been meaning to say to you for some number of years now um it turns out that everything you said about Donald Trump was true um in fact you were right about everything and I'm just curious I'm sure people tell you this all the time that that you were right about everything um I don't know whether you take a certain measure of satisfaction in that you find it quite depressing that that's true you you wonder why it is people did listen more um when you as you were describing what a terrible person Donald Trump would be for the country and for democracy like reflecting back how do you how do you process having been so much earlier than everybody else to this guy was well Mark it it is a a question 1:04 that I get asked on occasion and um the way I think about it is back in 2016 it was just really hard for people to believe um that he could turn out uh to be such a dangerous chaotic vindictive uh president and I I think a lot of people have kind of suspended their judgment because they liked some of what he said and they didn't take it literally they they kind of took it as political rhetoric like okay we're gonna crack down on the border we're for that we want an orderly border we want security at the border well we want people to be treated humanely you know but so okay I I'll give the guy a chance and everything else he said he also sort of dressed himself in populist clothing uh and you know made a lot of um uh attacks on uh traditional 2:05 Republicans uh on corporations uh that he was going to deliver a better economy more and and better incomes for people he went after the Affordable Care Act but said he was going to produce something much better and and so I think there was confusion on the part of a lot of people and and frankly members of the press who liked covering him because he was so entertaining uh and maybe weren't following it as closely as I was or understanding the interplay between um what he was saying and doing and uh foreign interests like um Russia's um or the um targeting of people so they were being manipulated but you know that was eight years ago people didn't understand quite how uh Insidious the internet 3:00 could be in targeting you and feeding you information and getting you addicted and driving you down you know rabbit holes by algorithm so I I'm I'm somewhat um understanding I guess I would say that people couldn't believe what they were hearing would be the literal Behavior they would see in the White House and uh I thought that you know he was telegraphing pretty clearly what he was going to do yeah look and I think a lot of people owe you this this recognition this apology and by the way I don't just mean Republicans I mean Democrats I think there were a lot of Democrats who frankly didn't take it as seriously as they should have I think the members of the I think the media really disgraced itself in the way in which it didn't and and I and and so that people who were not following the 26 campaign 2016 campaign um closely or don't remember I want to point out one particular moment um because it it is like riveted in my mind I remember standing actually at 4:02 your Campaign Headquarters when you gave a speech in August of 2016 to a community college in Nevada and it was about the altright which I remember listening to you say it and I'm like huh I don't know that I know that term and you literally walked people through you know what Donald Trump and this movement which at that time seemed very very you know below the surface what this meant and you know one of the things you said is you said from the start Donald Trump has built his campaign on Prejudice and paranoia he is taking hate groups mainstream and helping a radical Fringe take over the Republican party I mean you were saying it in very very clear terms uh not the terms that politicians oftentimes use where it's very you know hedged you were saying it in very clear terms and here we are now in 2024 and in fact that radical Fringe has taken over the Republican Party um and I I I wonder you know was there a moment 5:06 in time either in 2016 or afterwards where you thought you know what people are just not getting this people are don't don't understand how bad this is going to be yeah no certainly that was something I thought often because um you're you're absolutely right uh you know you were part of the campaign I'm very grateful for your support your help your you know legal expertise um we you know I gave that speech because I had been studying the rise of the right you know I actually said there was a vast right-wing conspiracy at the end of the 1990s because I could see all the interconnections but you know I I was I was looking for it I was studying it and trying to be uh historic about it I knew that there had been you know movements uh conservative Fringe uh right-wing movements in our nation's history 6:00 I knew that there was a very strong effort uh combining kind of the uh religious right with the uh corporate right with the ideological partisan right to do things like overturn roie Wade and and stack the courts with judges of their ideology and and and Views so I I was much more uh aware of the underlying infrastructure that had been built over a lot of years what I saw in Trump uh was someone who had an almost visceral understanding of that dark belly of American politics that he was great at the dog whistle uh appealing to racism and uh you know the anti-immigrant uh uh attitudes that uh he helped to uh Foster and and that he was Allied with people like Steve Bannon uh and others 7:05 who were almost apocalyptic in their view about what needed to happen to overthrow American culture not just win political power but overthrow the culture and I think that again the Press was not covering and most most of the people covering that campaign were not particularly know knowledgeable about the past and didn't you know may may not have even known that you know America firsters packed Madison Square Garden in 1939 in a pro-nazi Germany rally to keep America out of uh you know interfering with Hitler I mean people didn't know those things and so they didn't really take me seriously to be I think very clear about it um and and thought that I was EX exaggerating you know I couldn't compete with Trump on the performance stage because I wouldn't go do say act 8:06 the way he did which kept them riveted and kept you know them covering empty podiums until he showed up I you know that's not me I wasn't going to do it I don't think that's who should be elected president so when I would give a serious speech um whether it was about the future of the Supreme Court which I gave in Madison Wisconsin or this speech you're talking about uh concerning the altright the far right WI uh movement to uh you know prop up Trump and win um I think people thought I was probably you know exaggerating making it up uh so you know it it just didn't jive with how people either thought about the election or in terms of reporters covered the election well so fast forward now to the end of 2020 um the beginning of 2021 and Donald Trump loses his election and 9:00 everyone is who is sensible knows he loses his election in fact Fox News says he lost the election at this at this point they called it remember L it yeah yeah they called the election right but Donald Trump and his sycophants are continuing to say he didn't and they are litigating in court my team and I are representing at that point President Biden and fighting those cases um and they're continued to be in the media and I don't want this to just be bash the media but it's just there continue to be in the media this sense of well he just needs to burn off a little bit of energy you know Donald being Donald you know yeah right exactly when when did you you know start to think you know what this is not going to end with a concession speech by Donald Trump this is not gonna end normally or well you know Mark it's really interesting because if you can remember uh you might be one of the few people who could uh the last debate I had with Trump in 2016 he then started to say 10:04 that if he didn't win it would be rigged he began to cast doubt on the validity of our elections and I remember being so shocked and and responding like what you what are you talking about I mean one of the great Hallmarks of our democracy is the peaceful transition of power so that actually happened in the third debate again no coverage of it but I kept that in the back of my my head uh and and you know one of the other reasons I should add that people you know didn't cover me so much they kept thinking I was going to win literally until the very end so it was like oh well you know this guy's more entertaining she'll be president that's fine so you fast forward to 2020 I think from what I've heard Trump was totally caught off guard that he had lost huh the Electoral College because they had done everything they could in the prior four years 20 11:03 starting in 2017 with the help of Republican Governors secretaries of state legislator to do everything they could to try to make sure they couldn't lose and he might you know have lost the popular vote again like he did to me in 2016 but he was confident he was going to win uh the uh Electoral College in fact I know that you know some people very close to him you know basically were telling uh folks that R running up to the 2020 election that Biden will probably win the popular vote but remember it doesn't matter because you know I won without the popular vote before and because the the the margins were so narrow in Georgia Arizona you know it it really was a very close election in the Electoral College even though Biden blew him out in the popular vote I think as you as you did by the way I did yeah and but but think about this and you've got a sophisticated audience 12:06 so in um you know in 2016 um I won by nearly three million votes right but I lost the key electoral states of Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin by 77,000 votes so you know a 30 38 39,000 vote turn would have made all the difference so Along Comes the 2020 election and President Biden wins by S and a half million votes but he wins The Electoral College by 100,000 votes so think about how narrow a margin that is and that's the bet that Trump and his enablers were making and because it was close in the Electoral College not in the popular vote they thought I think some of them might have been diluted enough to think you know oh my God the Democrats Have Cheated us which you know is so ridiculous in large 13:06 measure because Republicans were running the states that they were worried about um but even if they couldn't prove that it was an article of faith and they were going to do everything they could uh to upend that election result and you know you you've litigated against these people all over the country they are now saying things like if Trump doesn't win it's not a fair election right I mean who I mean really who believes that except cult members and that's what they are so what's your advice you know I'm sure you've offered your advice privately to President Biden yeah and I'm sure people seek your counsel all the time you know you have this back backdrop you have been a you have been sort of a profet frankly you have you have seen what Donald Trump is going to do before he has done it probably more than any other person uh there is so as and now you're saying 14:02 in 2024 you're hearing them say this which we all are so what is the like what how does this end you know like how do how do we get from here to to normaly or something you know in 2025 well let me start with the good news and the good news is that with um really only um you know a few exceptions Democrats are running the elections in Wisconsin in Michigan in Pennsylvania um they have in Arizona in in Arizona they they have you know the governor uh in uh North Carolina um Nevada has a republican Governor but Democratic office holders elsewhere so including Secretary of State including Secretary of State which is as you know the office that runs elections so the good news is that I think you'll get Fair results you know and we have to accept those results because Democrats are basically trying to call the 15:02 shots that's you know not the case in Georgia but you know the the governor There Rose to the occasion in 2020 let's you know hope that he does again so here's what I think is the game that they are uh playing you know this better than anybody they are trying to narrow the electorate they are purging votes as quickly as they can Purge votes and they are uh legislates are sometimes forcing Democratic office holders to do things in order to you know get along uh with them on on other matters and I knew I know from uh 2016 um I think this is accurate still uh Mark is that take one area I I got more votes uh I got a higher percentage of the votes in Cleveland in 2016 than President Obama had gotten but the electorate had so shr that my higher percentage was fewer votes and so that's the number one thing 16:04 Purge voters have a whole system of raising challenges of you know stopping at every turn people who have every legitimate reason to be able to vote uh secondly have intimidation uh at the polls go after people who are trying to vote make it difficult for them challenge their vote force them to cast a provisional vote I they have a lot of games they play which you have been litigating against for years now but they're going to do everything they can to throw a spanner into the works and that's on the sort of election uh you know operation Side Of The Ledger this is what they want to do to try to mix it up make it difficult cause problems on the messaging side I I don't even know yet probably can't even imagine what they're going to do with 17:00 artificial intelligence and other uh cyber attacks on voters in terms of the messages that they will get sometimes deliberately to confuse them you know different polling places different days to uh vote different times of voting I mean whatever they can do to mess people up we already had an example of that in the Democratic primary with you know somebody doing a phony Robo call from President Biden telling them you know not to vote uh on a certain day so I think they're they're going to dramatically increase their confusion uh uh operation uh in terms of uh aimed at voters to get them you know somewhat discouraged by the complexity of voting or the they're not knowing what they should do and then finally look I think they're going to be very effective in their uh disinformation campaigns and you know 18:03 they were they were good they were good against me and they're still repeating the lies they told about me in 2016 to rev up their base you know whether it's pizzagate or you know all these other crazy you know things they said so I think there's going to be h a three-prong strategy shrink the electorate uh make it difficult to vote confuse people about voting make it hard for them to understand what they're supposed to do discredit mailin votes all of that and then just Flatout disinformation and I would assume they will have some you know big surprises toward the end uh that they are going to try to uh launch against uh the president so you have seen this from every perspective you you obviously your husband was uh was President you were a senator you were a secretary of state you served in uh President Obama's cabinet know one of the things that strikes me that you say here that is 19:02 that you know there was a time not that long ago when um popular mandates were really important to politicians you know Ronald Reagan would rag not about his Electoral College wins but about his popular mandate know your husband uh I remember in 20 in in 1990 in 1997 after he won re-election talked about what winning a mandate of the popular vote meant for his ability to govern you know people don't realize but um Bob Dole who was a senator and also former RNC chair not a not a bipartisan figure uh especially early in his time during Watergate he actually took to the floor of the senate in 1972 and said if of course the American people would be ill served if the person who won the popular vote didn't win the the the presidency because because of this importance of the popular will being behind the president and I think the media did a really disservice to people in 2017 because they would talk about the Trump you know the Trump voters and how Trump had won majority of the but he didn't he 20:00 W he lost the popular vote he lost it more in 20 in 2020 and and I know um you have been Secretary of State you've seen democracies around the world like I said you've obviously seen it here um am I right to think there is a danger in a political party in the Republican party you know trying to make it harder to vote and easier to cheat so they can win power with ever smaller shares of the electorate like isn't that mandate idea kind of important to governing well you would think so but uh they're more interested in populism than in the popular majority and their idea of winning is uh at any cost uh to do whatever is necessary and to shrink the electorate uh so that they win in the Electoral College because honestly I don't think they could win a popular vote in any election uh up up anding coming but they have a different view 21:01 about what they're doing um they they are running to win not to validate and respect the process that we have built up over you know nearly 250 years to try to figure out how to do this right they are winning to implement an agenda and that was always pretty clear but now they actually have one it's you know project 2025 they have right-wing think tanks and and others working on putting together what Trump will do so nobody should be uh surprised it's all written down what he's going to do from day one uh forward and he telegraphs and talks about it all the time so honestly I think it is uh really quite distressing to see someone who doesn't really care whether he wins the popul the vote obviously he'd love to everybody would love to but that's not 22:01 the goal the goal is to win power uh and what happened after the 2020 election is that he was so angry and shocked that he hadn't won as he had been led to believe he would win uh that he put our country through this prolonged trauma um and he kept as he is an Insurrection well he but he's a bully and and he he thinks that if he bullies you enough and and it's worked with the Republican party it certainly has worked with the House Republicans as we see every day now if he bullies you enough you will give in so if he disrupts the process if he sends his you know followers to the capital to try to disrupt uh the counting of the votes if he tries to have fake electors everything he's done calling up you know State officials asking them to find more votes which literally means go be like Vladimir Putin and up votes so that I end up 23:00 winning that's all fair game to him because all that matters to him his enablers his amplifiers his supporters is that he wined and it doesn't matter to them how it happens okay you you mentioned earlier um a speech you gave during the ca 2016 campaign about the Supreme Court and I can't let our time expire without asking you you know you were for people who don't know you were a very very very prominent and successful National lawyer before you came to Washington DC so you have seen the bench from the standpoint of a of a of a lawyer um you were a US senator which is really a unique perch on understanding the Supreme Court because you get to vote on and examine and really hear what goes into being a federal judge um and you know you predicted again you were right about everything uh you predicted what we would see with the court and and one of the things that has worried me is not only we've seen the roll back in civil rights in Shelby County and the dobs 24:02 decision um the attack on abortion rights um but recently the court seems to be putting its thumb on the scale for Donald Trump in some really meaningful and important ways um you know obviously it found that uh not withstanding the findings of a trial court and a and a state court in Colorado that um he was not disqualified which seemed like a real stretch I mean they seem to they seem to go a long travel there away from originalism to to get to that result on the Trump immunity cases the case involving you know what is really just a frivolous theory on his part that he somehow is immune from prosecution they they scheduled this thing so that they seem to be trying to help him run out the clock um what do you from having seen the Supreme Court and the federal courts from all these Vantage points what would you what would you ta tell people to make of the current composition and what they're doing to help Donald Trump well what the majority is doing is what they were put on the court to do they 25:03 are uh implementing uh a right-wing agenda uh it regardless of legislative uh action legislative history uh any kind of uh constraint that stands in the way of them getting to the result that is in line with the kind of conservative Manifesto about rolling back Federal power unleashing unleashing corporate power holding the Second Amendment sacran above all other you know parts of our Constitution which is not an originalist View at all um and then of course the the poorly reasoned poorly written uh dobs decision um an outrage outrage overturning years decades of precedent well and it was also it it was so LLY results oriented it it it didn't even 26:01 pretend uh to take on the arguments in a thoughtful serious way you know I I taught law many years ago it would not have passed muster if uh it had been an assignment in my you know Law School teaching you know I was in the Senate when both John Roberts and uh Alo were uh nominated to the court by George W bush therefore I had a chance as you rightly say to interview both of them and I found John Roberts to be a kind of um conservative corporate oriented uh lawyer uh who had a a kind of uh preconceived notion of the way things and people should work like I want people to be colorblind so that's the kind of society I am going to try to make happen which means ignoring Generations s centuries of discrimination in uh uh oppressing black people in our country because I 27:04 this is what I want I mean it was almost an almost kind of intentional navite if you will that really came across to me likable if I sat next to him at a dinner party probably would have had a really nice conversation but I voted against him and I voted against him because I thought he um was you know not only a candidate of uh the far right the Federalist society and and their agenda but that his life experience was just too narrow to really be in that position Alo struck me almost immediately upon sitting down to talk with him as a radical as a fanatic about his views of culture and the role of religion in our society and his religion not maybe yours or mine marks but his religion and I found him scary and uh I said so on the 28:05 floor of the Senate when I voted against him so I you know knew that this was on the March I went to law school with Clarence Thomas um so it was yeah it wasn't like I was surprised um but then with the Gorsuch appointment and you know what that led to uh especially in the face of McConnell preventing any uh nomination from Barack Obama to even be considered which was a total break with President just Hardball results oriented politics uh and we got you know we got that and then we got you know Amy Cony Barrett so we you know we we we we got the judges that had been groomed put into the pipeline uh to do what they are now doing yeah so I have to ask you one last question um and I'm sure people ask you this a lot in different 29:03 formulations um because you have been right about everything was saying that I mean you know that my grandchildren would laugh at that so there are a lot of people out there who are disillusioned by the political process they are upset about this or that or they just feel like politics isn't working for them and you know one of the things that the Republicans are able to do in voter suppression both by making voting harder people say ah what's the why I go through the trouble or through disinformation and misinformation they they are able to dissuade people from voting but for people who come up to you and say look you know I feel like you were you were cheated um you know I think that that your election was not on the up and up because Russia wasn't you know Russia got involved and Donald Trump and and you know and all that um and yeah I voted for President Biden in uh in 2020 but you know we lived through Trump trump didn't you know we we made it through him 30:04 once why you know and it wasn't great but we survived why should I continue to be engaged in this process why shouldn't I just you know say ah it's not for me this voting thing or I should cast a protest vote like what do you what do you tell people about what is at stake here if they think they made it through Trump once and you know it they'll survive it again well the first thing I I say is I'm for Joe Biden on the merits I think he's done a good job as president and I often rattle off the many things that I agree with and that were difficult to get through a divided Congress which he did and which is helping to reshape our future whether it's infrastructure or the price of prescription drugs or getting competitive with China on science uh with the chips bill I mean everything you can you know see that is in process thanks to the Biden Administration I 31:03 think is is very positive for America now the results are not always blaring in great big neon lights but we're laying a very strong uh grounding and I think maybe even more importantly he's modeling responsible leadership which is not flashy not uh engaging in vitriolic attacks on people you know in rallies and online not threatening to execute people and putting them in jail and the kind of threats that you hear coming out of Donald Trump should scare every American because with an authoritarian you never know what side of the bed they'll wake up on you never know who they're going to be upset with today you never know if somebody you know basically bribes them uh by giving business to a relative or you know some other gift uh that they will try to destroy one business to Advantage another you just never no because they don't believe in the rule of law they 32:01 don't believe in institutions and therefore if you give them a chance to be more unfettered than he was in his first term when he was trying to figure out what he could do and he had actually some people around who were restraining him that is all going to be gone if he ever gets back near the White House again it will be like having a dictator and I don't say that lightly but go back and read project 202 they're going to fire everybody oh the the person in you know the the government who knows about what may be the next pandemic get rid of him he didn't vote for me or I don't you know like the way he looks I mean just think about the chaos in the instability that we got through with covid although it cost hundreds of thousands more lives than it should have because he was such an inept uh leader uh when we needed somebody to really grab hold and guide us through this unprecedented uh Global 33:05 uh pandemic so I think people who say well I'm not enthusiastic I don't know what difference it would make and and they say oh you know Joe Biden's old I always say look you're right Joe Biden is old um he's also effective uh he's compassionate he cares about people uh he wants to maintain our democracy he will abide by the results of a a fair and free election and Donald Trump is old and he has 91 felony criminal indictments against him and in a court of law it's not just rhetoric you got to step up and prove evidence that's one of the reasons you win so many cases mark because the other side is in there just you know carrying on you know making claims they can't prove and you actually step up and you got facts and you got and it's how novel and you win because you have a better case this man has been 34:03 indicted 91 times and do we really expect him to uh govern in a stable uh appropriate rules based respectful way of course not and if you're somebody who thinks well yeah but he's entertaining and politics is boring and you I don't know what they do anyway you C you cannot think like that in this election no matter what issue you care about I don't care what it is uh you will you will find that the next president will have some influence on that and you want somebody at the very least uh who will try to find what the facts are and make decisions uh that are evidence-based um and finally I think we haven't talked much about the international Arena but you know his Bromance with Putin and it was actually called that I think by the former prime minister of Australia who's said he saw Trump with Putin and and and Trump was 35:00 like you know just Gaga over Putin because Putin does what he would like to do kill his opposition imprison his opposition drive you know journalists and others into Exile rule without any check or balance that's what Trump really wants and so we have to be very conscious of how he uh sees the world because in that world he only sees strong men leaders he sees Putin he sees she he sees Kim Jong-un in North Korea those are the people he is uh modeling himself after and we've been down this road in our you know world history we sure don't want to go down that again and especially when my view having negotiated with Putin and knowing that one of the reasons he went after me is because he knew I would you know deal with him in an appropriate way and Trump would basically do whatever he wanted it's really important to think about 36:03 what could happen to our world uh with Trump back in the White House withdrawing us from NATO not caring about what happens in Europe our biggest trading partner the place where we share values with uh the idea that he wants Ukraine to fail the idea that he doesn't want us to be able to surveil our enemies I mean this is a very scary Prospect yeah you were um an extraordinary Secretary of State I mean just I mean one of the greatest Secretary of States in our country in part because you you believed in um in the American ideal of democracy and supporting our allies and building International consensus but also you believed in opposing our enemies you know you you told Vladimir Putin who he was uh uh you were Ed about what the threats uh to uh uh the country are and to democracy and 37:05 so um I said the last was my last question but I but you opened the door so I'm gonna ask this how much damage has Donald Trump done permanently to you know I I think about you know no offense to Secretary of State blinkin but it strikes me you had Donald Trump injured the American um brand you know a lot of what the secretary of state has is that around issues around democracy and fairness and liberalism and women's rights and you know expanding the rights of of people and talking to other countries about what they needed to do and how much do you do you feel like this is a transitory damage that he's done or do you think this is like a permanent damage that he's done I think he did damage exactly as you described um really undermined our credibil uh but I do think Biden has done a really remarkable job in repairing a lot of that you know putting together uh the 38:06 alliance the NATO alliance again to try to you know support Ukraine and stand against uh Russia putting together Pacific alliances as you and I are talking before we began I was at the White House first state dinner with the Japanese uh prime minister South Korea Japan Australia the Philippines India the the Biden Administration is really worked hard to get them into a uh a working Alliance in order to deter China's uh most aggressive uh intentions um so I I think it was really difficult for Biden and blinkin and others to come in following Trump and they had to quickly you know literally go around the world reassuring people but they've done a good job of that but there's a I mean I've spent a lot of time in Europe I was at something called the Munich security conference in February all I did was try to reassure European allies and I'm talking about you know 39:02 not just the big countries like you know Germany and and France I'm talking about the Scandinavian countries the Baltic countries Poland places that really understand Russian aggression historically and Vladimir Putin's particular brand of it and they have no Illusions if Putin is successful in Ukraine they're coming after Poland I mean the foreign minister uh of you really think so you think po you think they I'm telling you what he said to me he said to me and he gave me some citations he said read the speeches that Putin is now making about Poland in which he is questioning the legitimacy of Polish borders sound familiar I mean if you talk to the leaders of Estonia Latvia Lithuania and particularly this young woman prime minister in Estonia whose mother and grandmother were deported by the Soviets into Siberia took years for them to get back she has no Illusions and the United States kind 40:05 of in Trump's worldview would let Putin do whatever he wants to do in Europe that would be the most serious geopolitical failure since Munich in uh world you know leading up to World War II when Neville Chamberlain came back and said oh I think if we give you know Hitler this you know little bit he'll be happy and we don't have to worry about him anymore that is not who you're dealing with you're dealing with an aggressive uh dictator who wants to you know really conquer and hold a lot of territory because in Putin's case it's how he views the uh former Soviet Union and the Russian Empire but it's also because they have assets they they have uh natural resources they have access to Seas they have uh technological uh capacity better than uh Russia's I mean 41:04 this is this is old-fashioned uh great power conflict and Russia is playing an old game and we're not understanding the full implication of it but the Europeans are standing firm in large measure because they do see what a direct threat it is to them and I believe it is also a direct threat to us that's not how Trump uh is talking you know he he really doesn't understand enough history to have a informed opinion but it wouldn't matter anyway because he wants to be on the side of you know the big guys and the final thing I'd say about this Mark is you know he's not a very good negotiator uh and uh you know a lot of a lot of people in real estate that I you know I know here in New York would tell me these crazy stories but he would always pretend and then he was on a pretend television show making him look like a great businessman but the bottom 42:02 line is uh he's easily bullied and he's easily flattered uh and he also only is concerned about himself not the country uh so if you're a smart enough dictator sitting in Moscow or Beijing or even Pyongyang bullying and flattering those are pretty easy strategies to uh carry out well secretary Clinton thank you for being here you as I said you are one of my heroes um in American politics in international Affairs uh in frankly just observing you know the country as you said you know the attacks not just on our legal system and our political system but on our culture that we have seen and you have been as I said you have been right about everything so thank you for everything you've done for the country thank you for everything you've done for me personally and thank you for being on the podcast well look right back at you Mark I admire you you're a great lawyer and truly you have been on the front lines of saving our democracy and you know enabling people 43:06 to actually vote and have their votes counted and we need you now as as much as ever so I know it must be stressful and exhausting to be on the front lines like you are but please just keep going we got to get through this next election because we'll either continue our democracy or we'll lose it well either way I think that's the choice let's hope we continue it thank thanks Mark thanks for joining us today on defending democracy if you enjoyed the episode please leave us a review and to find out more and stay up toate on the latest voting rights and election news visit democracy docket.com and make sure you are subscribed to our daily and weekly newsletters we'll see you next time today's episode was produced by Ali Rothenberg Gabby Corporal and Paige mosit who was edited by gabri Corporal and paig MTZ defending democracy is a production of democracy doet LLC

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