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US ELECTION 2024 OVERTURNING THE ELECTION Katie Couric: Neal Katyal on How Donald Trump Could Overturn the 2024 Election PLAY YOUTUBE VIDEO Original article: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G7gcWbwEGA Peter Burgess COMMENTARY Peter Burgess
Neal Katyal on How Donald Trump Could Overturn the 2024 Election Katie Couric Oct 16, 2024 333K subscribers ... 203,139 views ... 8.1K likes I spoke to my friend Neal Katyal, who teaches constitutional law at Georgetown University, about the terrifying efforts Donald Trump is already putting forth to take away votes in the 2024 election. Neal explains why the house and senate may end up deciding who the next president is, not you and me. Sign up here for daily email updates from me, Katie Couric, on the news that matters most to you: https://katiecouric.com/wake-up-call/... Subscribe to my channel: / katiecouric Follow me on Instagram: / katiecouric Subscribe to my podcast: ApplePodcasts.com/KatieCouric Follow me on Facebook: / katiecouric Follow me on Twitter: / katiecouric Transcript 0:00 hi Neil it's so good to see you great to see you I know my followers just love hearing from you and I am going to ask you about the oped you wrote In The New York Times today but Neil I'm going to ask you to explain it to us in very simple terms because I think it's very complicated and you conceded even as a um a law professor you have a hard time understanding what you are what is actually going on but tell me if I've got this right and then you can explain it Donald Trump and many Republicans have spent a lot of time despite the fact that what 61 or 62 courts have said they don't have evidence Neil Cal is a Georgetown University law professor and was acting solicitor general during the Obama Administration for people who wanted to know sorry Neil somebody didn't know who you were can you imagine 1:00 anyway um so they spent a lot of time saying this election was illegitimate was rigged if you will and now quietly behind the scenes in a number of states in different ways the infrastructure is being set up which will actually create create the uh circumstances for an election to be rigged is that accurate yeah I think think you basically got it so um you know I've been thinking for the last several months about Donald Trump about what he's been saying what those around him like JD Vance have been saying and I've come to the conclusion that I think that they are going to if they lose in the vote on November 5th they're still going to declare Victory just like Trump did after the debate I won the debate and then say the election was rigged when uh 2:00 when the evidence doesn't support that he won the election and you know so I spent months just trying to understand what all the rules are what the different pieces of the Playbook that Trump has available and I think in many ways Katie this is the most important oped I've ever written because it really tries to take the legal landscape and marry it to Trump's stated Ambitions and when you add them together it's frankly terrifying and your viewers know that normally I'm the voice of come normally I'm the voice that says hey the system is going to hold we have institutions we have principle we have tradition history and the like and I'm really worried about it this time around because really you know Trump tried this in 2020 he tried to steal the election um it didn't work but he's had four years with his minions to go pro and study what to do and in 2020 3:00 Trump lost the Electoral College massively Biden got 306 votes uh Trump got 232 so when Trump launched all of his challenges he couldn't just win in one state in order to flip the election back in 20120 he had to win multiple different challenges which is really hard that might not be true this year it might come down to one state Pennsylvania Nevada Arizona who knows Georgia um in which case all the his task in terms of overturning the election is going to be a lot easier than it was before and so that's like basically why I'm writing the piece to explain what Trump can do in the courts what can he do with State Governors what can he do with State legislatures what can he do with election boards and what can he do in the US Congress so so I wondered if you could simplify it for us Neil because you do write about the various ways that the election results 4:02 in different states could be rendered null and void or overturned by a whole host of bodies from as you said Board of Elections to Governors to state legislatures so just explain it like I'm in eighth grade uh and you're my Civics teacher how have they first of all I guess before you get into specifics who is behind all this so they're already like a whole Trump Machinery step Miller his former advisor they're off filing lawsuits already they filed I think 90 lawsuits uh to try and prevent people from voting in different ways challenging voting laws that make it easier for people to vote trying to restrict mail dropboxes and things like that so there's a concerted effort right now Katie even before the election to try and make it harder for people to vote so were they recruiting all these 5:02 people since 2020 to kind of help in various States yeah I looks that way I mean that's you know I only know what the newspapers tell me but that is what they're saying so let me just like make it really simple like what could Trump do so let's say Pennsylvania is won by you know 50,000 880,000 votes or something like that by kamla Harris these Trump lawyers could go in and say oh you had some wrong people voting they voted in the wrong County their ballots weren't exactly clear who they voted for maybe they didn't sign the inner envelope if it's a mail-in ballot they have to sign twice you know any number of possibilities to try and throw out some votes that'll then go to the courts and it may go to state court in which in Pennsylvania you have partisan judges it may go to Federal Court which are ostensibly nonpartisan and then that case may go all the way to the United States Supreme Supreme Court 6:00 and you know even if the Supreme Court acts in a totally nonpartisan way we need to wonder whether that's the way the Americans are going to American people are going to view it at this point given the Court's kind of historic low in terms of popular opinion polls and the like with the court so you've got courts as one possible place you have election boards in which the Republicans could say hey that mailin ballot in Pennsylvania those count or people voting you know people voted who shouldn't have you got to throw that out so that's another way or you could try and put pressure on the governor to disqualify um you know there's all sorts of different opportunities for mischief and the more we start talking about and understanding that you know the most precious right we have As Americans our right to vote might be taken away by some internal self-dealing in a back room in a court 7:00 or in a legislature or a Governor's Mansion or an election board the better aren't there state laws Neil to prevent these Shenanigans from happening how can these you know officials be replaced by say Trump loyalists or other people I mean it just does it seems so uh so unfair and so undemocratic and and and aren't there laws that prohibit this from happening there ought to be a law right there are some laws and Congress in fact in 2022 passed an important law called The Electoral count Reform Act to try and make it harder for shenanigans to occur there are a couple problems with that Katie uh three I would say one is the law is just paper you know James Madison in Federalist Paper 51 says it's a mere parchment barrier and parchment is no good against a concerted uh enemy who has ambition and who wants to set 8:01 aside democracy it only does so much as we've seen over the last several years Trump has gotten away with all sorts of lawbreaking hasn't been brought to justice so one problem is just the nature of law the second which closely relates to that is the uh Personnel Trump has had four years to purge the Republican party of people who didn't believe the big lie he's put people in place including in local election boards his vice presidential candidate Katie couldn't even admit that Trump lost in 2020 that's all you need to know so he's changed people like Pence who some at some point discovered one vertebrae on January 6 2021 but now you've got someone who has no vertebrae who's literally just all in on the big live back in 2020 and you kind of know that tells you I think all you need to know about where he's going to be in 2024 and then the third thing 9:00 is there's a move among Republican lawyers and Scholars to say those laws that you're talking about that should prevent this are unconstitutional that they don't count that they should be invalid because they you know interfere with the original understanding of the Constitution well I have to ask you about some good news because there was a ruling in Georgia yesterday Neil that in which a County Judge rejected the argument that local election officials have the power to refuse to certify election results so again he rejected that argument so that was good news right was very good news for that judge to do that he's a republican appointed judge as I understand it and you know and has reached the right pro-democratic conclusion and by the way that's the way the Republican party used to be like I had the privilege of arguing arguing the Voting Rights Act case in 2010 it had just been renewed by Congress 10:00 421 to3 in the House of Representatives 98 to0 in the Senate that's the kind of consensus we've had for most of my lifetime which is the right to vote's the most precious thing Republicans and Democrats alike fought for it and now we're seeing that you know really gone and I'm glad to see this you know this judge in Georgia do the right thing but Katie here's the bad news that's just one guy in Georgia that case can be appealed to the Georgia intermediate Court to the Georgia Supreme Court and we don't know what's going to happen and that's the worry that there's such a concerted Playbook now that is bent on trying to take our votes away and as you write in your New York Times uped this effort has been professionalized you know and I still go back to the question by whom Neil who are the people other than Stephen Miller who are orchestrating on the national Republican party like who who who is 11:01 make who who's pulling the strings who is the man behind the curtain well I think It ultimately traces back to Donald Trump who's you know I think pushing the big lie since 2020 still can't admit that he lost the election and is now trying to get all of the Machinery in place to basically do a steal in 2024 and let me say one other really scary scenario which is the role of the United States Congress remember what did on January 6 2021 he rejected Trump's calls to try and throw out the votes from one state or another because of obstal voter fraud Trump tried to flip the election in Congress on January 6th well Pence is no longer around and you know fortunately the vice president is Vice President Harris but under the new rules that were passed in 2022 if both houses the the House and Senate by simple majority vote say you 12:03 know those Electoral College votes don't count because they were procured by fraud or bribery or something like that they can throw out either an individual member of the Electoral colleges Vote or the entire slate of electors from a particular State and that could swing the election and so you really do have the possibility that the house of represent atives in the Senate could be picking the next president particularly if things get close so remember my Pennsylvania example before let me just make it really simple let's just say Trump trump loses Pennsylvania by 880,000 votes he tries to challenge it in the courts he loses he claims vote fraud mail-in ballot fraud who knows even if he loses in the courts he can then go to Congress and as he can persuade a majority of the house which seems already in on the big lie from 13:01 2020 let alone 2024 and a majority of the Senate to throw out Pennsylvania then Pennsylvania might be gone and then you know the election could be flipped the in the other direction by the way we have a few more minutes with Neil so if anybody has questions just put them in the question section but Neil to that point on Meet the Press this Sunday the Speaker of the House Mike Johnson was asked if he would certify the election results regardless of who wins and he said quote yes if the election is free and fair and legal and we pray and hope that it is is he setting himself up to to not certify the election or to make his own judgment along with other members of the house I can't say what's in his heart so but but certainly the statement there gives a lot of wiggle room and the ability for him to basically do big lie you know the sequel in 202 before and say well it wasn't 14:00 freee and fair there was fraud and stuff like that and you know the Republican party has been known to make stuff up um you know JD Vance in the presidential in vice presidential debate claimed that Trump saved Obamacare now I argue the Obamacare case I can guarantee you Donald Trump did not save Obamacare okay so if they're going to do that there and lie about that aren't they going to lie about voting I mean everything suggests that they will I mean what makes you know another way of putting the point that I wrote in the opet is what gives you any confidence that if Trump loses he wouldn't pull out this Playbook of course he's going to okay so a lot of people in the question section are saying what can we do about this before it happens before the chaos uh you know so a lot of people don't you know what can be done about this and and are there any antidote what is what are the Democrats doing in 15:02 the face of all these things so I realize those are two questions but maybe answer the first like what can the average citizen do right so I think there's three things to do one is just we really need to create a movement in favor of democracy and the right to vote and that's you know people of every political persuasion and we need you know I want to see George W bush talking about this I want to see Mitt Romney talking about this I want to see You Know Carl Ro talking about this um and you know draw attention to really what truly makes America great is democracy um and that these are real threats and you know the law as you were saying Katie is written to prevent them but there's a move to try and throw out the law and we need to really guard against that so that's one thing the second is it's the new Congress on January 6th that calls the shots right not the old Congress Keys yeah so so that what that 16:01 means is that you know as you think about who to vote for in this election um not just the president but the House and Senate they very well may be deciding who our next president is not you and me and so the House and Senate someone asked in the question section what if the House and Senate are controlled by democrats yeah so if the House and Senate are controlled by democrats then they have the ability to prevent you know these kinds of big lies things from U mattering in the US Congress now if the courts try and invalidate certain States or something like that then you know there's still opportunities for Mischief so it's not as if a democratic Congress is the firewall alone but it is obviously a big help um because the Democrats unlike the Republicans don't seem to be trying to make up stories about vote you know voter irregularities and stuff like that 17:00 and then the last thing to do and maybe the most important to answer your readers question your viewers questions is you know whoever wins has got to win by but you know like I think particularly if it's teris she's got to win by more than just one state it's got to look more like what Biden was able to succeed in 2020 with 306 to 232 because if it's really close and it's down to one state there will be immense pressure and Trump is better at putting pressure on people than anyone um to try and throw out an election that was free and fair in order to give him the raw power to be the next president are you saying that like Brad raffensberger who was the Secretary of State in the state of Georgia When Donald Trump asked him to find me 11,000 whatever votes 4 472 I can't remember and Brad raffensberger basically told him to pound sand and record Ed the conversation he didn't say 18:00 pound sand he actually voted for Donald Trump and was very polite but are you saying that like the secretaries of State who oversees these elections that they have been um replaced by Trump loyalists in many states yeah some have been replaced so that's certainly a worry um absolutely and that's also true not just at the kind of secretary of state level but it's true in the courts it's true in the legislatures and it's true even with the vice presidential candidate for Donald Trump um and so we have more reason to worry about the Personnel now rensburg is still in power that's great um and you know that gives me confidence confidence along with the governor in Georgia who seems like someone who has yeah who seems like someone who I think has saying the right things about democracy and the like um so you know Georgia may be of less concern than some other states but of the states you're 19:00 particularly worried about Neil that you I mean you've been studying this issue where is it like your hair is hairs on fire yeah I'm I'm not gonna get into that right now so um but uh no about the states you're concerned about no no I think you know that my hope is that the states are going to do the right thing I don't want to single any particular State out at this point but I think the things to think about are states legislators Governors election board wordss United States Congress and then courts both state and federal and remember many courts are elected in this country and they run as Democrats or Republicans and the idea that a partisan Court could be settling the election is a really kind of scary Prospect well let me ask you about the Democratic response to this I mean the Democrats have lots of lawyers on their side are they gearing up for all these challenges Neil and and are they well aware of this 20:02 quote unquote infrastructure that's kind of been established over the last four years that will call into question a lot of these State results I mean I have to think they have to be I mean it's it's just so obvious that this Machinery exists we've got the visible proof in the form of 90 lawsuits having been filed already at this point in 2020 only oneir 30 or so had been filed so there's lots of visible disa and then you've got people who are just saying you know this is you know the Republicans are saying this is part of the Playbook um and so you know I'm sure they're aware of it I'm sure they have good lawyers but at the end of the day Trump has put a lot of Personnel in that may make it hard for you know the center the Centrist people who believe in the law to hold one and and this I'll let you go because I know you've got uh stuff to do Neil but you know the election is certified right on January 6 is there a chance 21:01 that this could drag on and the you know because of these legal challenges the election can't be certified by that date and perhaps you know the peaceful transfer of power can't even happen on January 20th yeah no there's a risk that November 5th is not going to be the day when which we know the election results a chance that even January 6th may not be and it might be that no candidate gets a majority of the Electoral College after Congress acts on January 6th in which case the election is thrown under the 12th Amendment to the Constitution to the US House of Representatives um and then it's a whole crazy process it's not a majority of the House of Representatives it's a majority of the states in and you know so you add up each state delegation and each state gets one vote and so right now if that vote were taken there are 26 states that 22:01 are controlled by Republican delegations and so Trump would win under the 12th Amendment it's of course the new congress not the old Congress that's going to pick out in the event of a tie or a circumstance in which someone doesn't have a majority in the Electoral College all of this is a long way of saying Katie this stuff is incredibly complicated and intricate um the rules around all of this but the thing I want all of our viewers to take away from it is there is a clear and present threat to your right to vote right now and there are people who are bent on trying to take it away from you and the best thing you can do to make sure your vote is heard is make sure it comes with a lot of other votes and that the election is not close because if the election is close in those Battleground States and the Electoral College vote is close there will be a lot of opportunities for Mischief in state courts federal courts state legislator state election boards 23:02 State Governors um and the US Congress this is all making my head hurt but let's just stay in touch and watch this space everyone and certainly convince people to go out and vote so uh we're not going to be talking about this Beyond January 6 but it sounds like that is a possibility Neil as always thanks so much for your time thank you thanks for watching pleasure to be with everyone thank you okay bye

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